Between The Wheels

I was going to work through the studio catalogue of The Who after completing my Rolling Stones journey, but this morning's reminiscing about hearing Kiss for the first time gave me a rethink. So:

1. Kiss (February 1974)

I hadn't listened to this for years before today, and I've probably listened to it three or four times if that. It wasn't one of the vinyl albums that I bought as a teenager; I bought it in a CD box set of the first three studio albums about 15 years ago. Good to hear it again. This is actually a pretty strong record for a debut, with classics that stood the test of time for many years - Strutter, Cold Gin, Firehouse, Deuce especially. By the time this was recorded they already had a pretty distinctive voice -these tunes are (mostly) powerful and economical but catchy. I hear shades of Zeppelin, shades of the Stones but for sure they have their own identity.

I have to say though - Kissin' Time is a real duffer. It actually reminds me of a sort of Brotherhood of Man or New Seekers tune on steroids. I've just read that it was a cover of an old '50s pop tune, and not included on the first release. Apart from that though it's all good, though some tunes are less focused than others.

I'd say that the selection of tunes from this record for Alive! is about right although I've never been completely convinced by 100,000 Years and generally when they lean too far toward ponderous metal and away from uptempo rock'n'roll they lose their charm (and my interest).

The Love Theme From Kiss instrumental is quite nice but it's not really the sort of thing you put a Kiss record on for. A novel oddity though. I enjoyed it.

None of the band was a particularly stellar musician (IMO) but they were all good enough to carry this stuff. Ace's sub-Page guitar licks sound a bit samey and predictable at times. The drums are maybe lacking a bit of oomph. But generally I'd say it's pretty well recorded and produced.

Here's an interesting thing. On the studio version, the Deuce riff has an odd syncopated treatment. I don't think it does it any favours.

I need to have a proper sit down for this. Get back to you soon!

You sum it up well...don't think the production or the pace of some of the songs do it any favour, but as a debut, it's very good. 

Quote from: Slim on October 04, 2023, 11:24:18 PMHere's an interesting thing. On the studio version, the Deuce riff has an odd syncopated treatment. I don't think it does it any favours.

Deuce was possibly the first Kiss tune I ever took notice of when Tommy Vance played it on the Friday Rock Show. It was the Alive! version and I was impressed enough to seek out the album. The first time I heard the studio version was when I bought the Double Platinum compilation. I hated what was done to that riff. My first thought was that Ace struggled with it in the studio....or something.
Ruins the studio version for me

Everyone has one: a defining band, a childhood friend that is always there when needed. A band that thrills you when they get it right.,.again! But also, it is the band that can disappoint the most if they get it wrong (! why? oh why?).

Kiss is that band to me, has always been like that and I cannot explain it. I stopped trying to find a reason for that, I will never find it. It just has an irresistable appeal on me, it's just the way it is. So this is my caveat entering into this thread:

I have all the albums, I know them by heart - for better or worse - I am a fact nerd and have a row of books on the band, their output and all of their quirks. I was an avid ROIO collector and had (at my peak) around 700 shows and demo/outtake cdrs floating around (yes, that means about 666 times Rock and Roll All Nite). I listened to ALL of them. There might be 1 demo out there that Gene Simmons himself hasn't since its conception, but other than that, I heard it all. It is with this baggage I put my foot forward and thank Slim for starting the thread.

Kiss, like any other band, had several tries before they got it right and you'd be surprised how well developed those songs sounded already. There is a whole album out there by a band called Wicked Lester, essentially Paul, Gene and assorted musicians.

The main point I am trying to make here is this: the debut is culled from demos and pre Kiss songs, not always intentionally written for album specific. The 5 track demo recorded with Eddie Kramer prior to the album sounds a lot fiercer than the final product. From that demo (recorded at Electric Ladyland) 4 songs made the cut here: Deuce, Strutter, Cold Gin and Black Diamond. Notice anything?

No? Look again. It is a song for each band member, albeit Ace backed out of singing his own composition (Cold Gin - in my opinion the best song on the album).

The sound on the album, which seems to please most, is a much constrained version in comparison to the demos. Well, Eddie Kramer...he practically built the EL studios with Hendrix, so he knew how to get the best out it! And the album is not produced by Kramer..

The remainder of the songs were songs either written for a specific purpose (Firehouse, fire breathing act), a left over from a far longer live instrumental (Love Theme..was initially named Acrobat and around 6 mins long), 100,000 Years, we all know what was suited for, we heard it on Alive!, Let Me Know was an old demo (that was called Sunday Driver) and Nothin' to Lose. A song the band really liked.

Kissin' Time (a cover) was not on the original album and was added later on insistance of band manager Bill Aucoin and was launched with a kissing contest. I don't rate it very high.

As a whole, as far as debuts go, this is a very good and well balanced album.

The Deuce riff, well I highly doubt Ace played the riff. Initially written by Simmons it is a bit of an oddball riff and song structure, Simmons had that knack early on in his career. Stanley was the designated riff player in Kiss, Frehley hardly played rhythm in the studio. In fact at some point, he hardly played at all in the studio (but that's for a later story). It might very well be Simmons played the riff himself.

Funny enough Frehyley has gone on record naming it his favourite Kiss song. It was written before he joined the band and he auditioned over it, playing (by his own admission) a 4 minute solo over the main riff, it got him the gig. Probably an urban legend though, the band seem to make their own up.

So recap, for me Cold Gin gets the nod as best song, Deuce, Black Diamond, Strutter follow suit. The rest I rate a bit lower.
My biggest struggle with the debut is the fact that everything is so slooowww. Luckily Alive! put that right for me.

Stanley, by the way, was a big Humble Pie fan and thought the world of Steve Marriot. He found of lot inspiration there in the early years.

I was thinking about Deuce last night and I had this thought - If Brown Sugar had never been written, I don't think Deuce would have either. I don't think it's a ripoff, but I definitely think it's in the DNA.

It's well doocumented all 4 Kiss members are Stones afficionados. Maybe Simmons the least and Frehley the most, but all of the early Kiss stuff were near rip offs of some sort.
So yes, I think you are right.
I always found Strutter the most Stones sounding track, with a certain swagger about it

Makes me wonder if Dutch TV has a version of Mastermind. No doubt about the specialist subject.

I was going to comment on the early Kiss stuff and Thenop has answered a few questions and/or made some comments about their sound/style that I was going to touch on. I'll carry on and say what I intended to anyway.

The earliest Kiss studio record I have is Dressed To Kill. It has a couple of songs on there that I always liked but I've always felt that a lot of their studio stuff is a bit, for want of a better word, wimpy. I think the early albums suffer most from this. I listened to the debut, probably for the first time, a few days ago after Slim started his run-through. Since discovering Kiss through Deuce, I was constantly disappointed that their studio output never matched their onstage bombast, how could it? A lot of their stuff just wasn't heavy enough. Every record had a few solid tracks but a lot of 'hokey' stuff too (the sort of thing Rush flirted with on In The Mood and, to a lesser extent, Finding My Way). On Kiss we have a couple of songs that a 'real demon' would never have gone anywhere near (Kissin' Time, Let Me Know). It does, however contain at least five songs that would be perennial live favourites and fit the heavy rock description when played live. Like all the early studio albums these songs lack guts here.
Hotter Than Hell, IMHO, is an improvement. A little heavier, less of a 'pop-rock' sound and a bit more direct. One thing I did notice on these records was that stylistically, the songs seem quite close to glam rock. The Slade influence is definitely there to be heard.
Until Creatures Of The Night, Kiss never really recorded a completely heavy record (but, of course, that wasn't recorded by the classic line-up and featured a lot of outside writers). Even Destroyer (which is considered to be a career-defining record) gets off to a great hard-rocking start with Detroit Rock City and King Of The Night Time World but is then let-down by the inclusion of Flaming Youth, Great Expectations and Beth.
I'd be surprised if any Kiss fans were truly happy with any of the first half a dozen studio records. Likewise, I'd be surprised if any fans were disappointed with any of the two live records (Alive II's studio side notwithstanding). Having said that, Kiss occupy a special place in my heart as they represented something distinctly exotic and other-wordly when I was younger and slightly obsessed with all things American.
I've never got into The Stones but found Slim's run-through of their studio records a good read but I'm really looking forward to the rest of this one.

One early recollection I forgot to mention. On first hearing Paul Stanley's vocals, I thought he sounded like a black guy  :-\

Quote from: David L on October 07, 2023, 12:05:43 AMOne early recollection I forgot to mention. On first hearing Paul Stanley's vocals, I thought he sounded like a black guy  :-\

Him being a huge souls fan will probably want to thank you for that. He released a an album with a group of musicians called Soul Station I think 2 years ago.

2. Hotter than Hell (October 1974)

Again, this is one I'd listened to probably three times at the most before I gave it a metaphorical spin on the bike yesterday.

To me the band sounds a bit tighter than on the debut and I think it's a bit better recorded despite a few flaws. The production is pretty basic but it does mostly get the best out of the guitar sound.

And once again, unsurprisingly, the best tunes are the ones that turn up on Alive!.

I was a bit disappointed with the vocal on the title track, it doesn't have the oomph of the live version.

At this point they're still flirting with slower, heavier metal tunes rather than the supercharged rock'n'roll that better suits them. I've got to admit though, Watchin' You is a real highlight, it really packs a punch. But to me Let Me Go, Rock'n'Roll - a sort of precursor to Rock'n'Roll All Nite, I think - is more their thing although in itself a bit unexceptional.

Of the non-Alive! tunes I thought All The Way was OK. Goin' Blind is a poor song despite the pleasingly sordid lyrical content. Mainline is very ordinary and I don't like Peter's vocal really. Comin' Home is a bit better but it has a clumsy, repetitive middle eight and even a last minute key change on the outro doesn't quite rescue it.

Strange Ways is an interesting one - listening to it I thought it was Ace on the lead vocal but according to Wikipedia, it's Peter again. The vocal on this tune especially sounds poorly recorded to me in any case. Ace plays through a phaser for his solo on this, which gives it a distinctive Hendrix sound and invites a comparison which does him no favours.

Is it stronger than the debut album? I'm not sure. Very decent (if patchy) second album though.

This is the collection of the first three albums that I bought some time in the noughties; I was annoyed to discover that the plastic inserts that hold the CDs have come completely unglued from the cardboard on the inside. But I ripped them to FLACs years ago.

(http://bikediary.uk/images/kiss_chronicles.jpg)

HTH was recorded in Los Angeles. The producer duo Kerner/Wise had moved away from NYC and wanted the band to come to them. In hindsight, not the best of ideas. They made 85 dollars each a week by now and shacked up in a cheap hotel. They were homesick, all of them being New York boys.
The gritty production suits the songs somehow, at least it's less clean than the debut.
Watchin' You was track no. 5 from the original Eddie Kramer demo,it's no wonder it is a highlight here.

The throwaways for me have always been Mainline, All the Way and Comin' Home. The latter being an actual highlight and opener for the Unplugged sessions in '96.
Let me go RNR is an interesting one. I never liked it, but I do see the appeal. But it's just mundane, Simmons by numbers.

The title track was modeled after Free's Alright Now and I find the main riff a work of art.
Got to Choose is also a great song and a fantastic album opener. It's actually one of Stanley's favourite Kiss songs.
Goin' Blind has long been hailed by many grunge band citing it as major influence. The hilarious lyrics always make me chuckle. Again, the acoustic version 20+ years later gave it a new lease of life.
And that brings us to the main highlights: Strange Ways, with indeed Criss on vocals because Frehley was still not sure of his singing voice (his first vocal would only be on the Love Gun album), the solo was done in one take, Ace standing in front of his amp in the studio room rather than the control room.
But my winner here is Parasite with a monster of a riff. It is intentionally sloppy played, and Ace went on record he doesn't like the latter day versions that sound polished and straightened out. He is so right.

Overall, already this early in their career, tensions arose between Simmons/Stanley on one side and Frehley/Criss in the other. Criss would threaten with quitting each time he wanted his way and somehow he won every time until 1979. Streetwise and older than the rest, the least amount of talent, had a hold over the rest it seems.

The best stories though are always those that include out of character things. The photo shoot for the front and back cover were done with the intend to create a party like yet theatrical setting. They succeeded.

The Japanese lettering was also deliberate, designed to create a buzz in Japan, that worked as well although it would be a couple of years before the band broke there.

The best story is how Paul Stanley got so drunk during the shoot, that when they were done they had to lock him in a car to stop him from doing stupid things. He was so drunk that even though they did not lock the car, he could not figure out how to open the door!

Anyway, album #2, largely written on the road in about 6 months. The second release in 1 year. Impressive..

3. Dressed to Kill (March, 1975)

(https://i.ibb.co/4RHrkpQ/dressed-to-kill.jpg)

I love this album. I bought it when I was 18 and I've played it dozens of times. I've played it twice today, as well.

This is a real step up in songwriting and consistency from the first two and despite being produced by the band themselves and Neil Bogart, who owned their record label and wasn't a record producer, it sounds better too.

I'm not at all sure that the songs that were used for Alive! are the best that this album has to offer, but then again - Dressed to Kill is all killer, no filler.

This is not a heavy rock album - it's spiky, quirky rock and roll with bags of character and attitude. I think it shares some of that New York punk / glam DNA. It has more in common with the New York Dolls than with Sabbath or Zeppelin. The energy is in the theatrical, extrovert spirit of the performances.

Above all, it's fun and for that reason the cover art suits it perfectly.

Paul and Gene each invest the preposterous lyrics about banging groupies and what not with a delightful over the top vocal persona.

If I had to criticise it I'd perhaps point out that it loses momentum with She, which although enjoyable in itself does spoil the party a bit by leaning into the heavy and ponderous.

This of course is the album that gave birth to the quintessential (and brilliant) Kiss tune Rock and Roll All Nite but there's some wonderful stuff on here that didn't make Alive! like Love Her All I Can - which is as catchy and punchy as anything; it bounces along joyfully.

Favourite tunes: Rock Bottom, Ladies in Waiting, Love Her All I Can, Rock and Roll All Nite. But they're all belters.

To me this is easily the second best Kiss studio album, second only to .. ah but perhaps that's a story for another day.

Totally agree there - DTK is an out and out classic for me - perhaps second to Rock and Roll Over..

Glad you like it, but I am the polar opposite.

For starters, the polished and thin production does not resonate with me at all.
And the songs...well..
Love Her All I Can and She were Wicked Lester Songs (find the versionof She, it has horns and flute.. then again, maybe not find it).
What is there then that I do like?
Well, I think the best song here is C'mon and love me, only being bettered on Alive! by being a lot heavier. the Gene duo Two Timer / Ladies in Waiting has none of the riffing I like Gene for, his darker side. She on the other hand get's the heavier treatmenet here that I like, and would be ablive staple in the early years.
Criss' sung Getaway (written by Frehley) may have been quirky, but that's its only redeeming feature then.
Stanley came up with Anyting for my Baby, by his own admission on e of his least favourite Kiss tunes, and Lover het all I can, like said a WL leftover. There's also opener Room Service, I recall hearing the album first and when Room Service opened there was this immediate feeling of disappintment. I don't think I ever got over that initial disappointment.
Like said, I really do like C'mon and Love Me, Rock Bottom is nice, with a Frehley penned intro tacked onto a Stanley song that does sound like it was half done. She has the Kiss DNA I always looked for and then, well the big one.

Rock and Roll All Nite was written by Simmons and Stanley together upon insitgation from Bogart who told the needed and Anthem. (Simmons quote: we never heard of the word Anthem except for the Ayn rand novel - there's a Rush cnnection for you!). The song is almost over before it begins, it is that short and it's  fun burst of energy. I really do like RnRaN, perhaps because I heard it so many times and seen what the song does live with people had added to this).

But I can't help shake the feeling this is not a complete Kiss album, the 2 WL leftovers, 30 mins playing time. You could call it my A Farewell To Kings Kiss experience..
 

I'm more in agreement with Thenop on this one. A lot of 'poppy' dross on here but Rock Bottom and C'mon And Love Me are the standouts.

Quote from: Thenop on October 09, 2023, 05:28:43 AMRock and Roll All Nite was written by Simmons and Stanley together upon insitgation from Bogart who told the needed and Anthem. (Simmons quote: we never heard of the word Anthem except for the Ayn rand novel - there's a Rush cnnection for you!).

That's odd isn't it? Surely every American is familiar with the term "national anthem".

Quote from: Slim on October 09, 2023, 09:12:01 AM

Quote from: Thenop on October 09, 2023, 05:28:43 AMRock and Roll All Nite was written by Simmons and Stanley together upon insitgation from Bogart who told the needed and Anthem. (Simmons quote: we never heard of the word Anthem except for the Ayn rand novel - there's a Rush cnnection for you!).

That's odd isn't it? Surely every American is familiar with the term "national anthem".

It is a quote on record in one of the books I have. Maybe just not in the context, as an anthemical (is that a word?) song.
They seem to have been quite naive though in their formative years by all accounts I have heard and seen.

I see that they've been performing Love Her All I Can live in recent years; Frehley's band does it as well apparently.

I really wish they'd played it live when I'd seen them in 1983 (forty years ago this month!). Would have been a real, and unexpected highlight.

I get why they often preferred the more bludgeoning stuff in a live setting. Playing to their audience perhaps, but not really to their strength.

It was only done on a few occasions: acoustic it works well and they have the Kiss Kruises where they break out the more obscure stuff. The band has always maintained that the 'normal' shows should be as recognizable to everyone, hence the absence of more deep cuts. 

4. Destroyer (March 1976)

What a record. This must surely be the definitive, and easily the best Kiss album. Released only 12 months later than the excellent Dressed to Kill, but a very different proposition indeed. This is not unpretentious, spiky rock'n'roll - this is pure theatre. Again this is an album I bought as a teenager and played to death. Forty-whatever years later, it has aged beautifully.

I think this is the Kiss Sergeant Pepper. It represents a clear and obvious elevation in songwriting and composition. It feels like a journey, a single coherent statement. It's an album that's as much about the production as the songs. It's punctuated with sound effects; the introduction to the first track even comes across as a sort of audio drama. And while it might not be a transcendent moment in popular culture like the eighth Beatles album, it is undoubtedly a high water mark in the Kiss canon, just as Pepper was for the Fab Four.

Obviously Bob Ezrin made a massive difference; it's a real production job with all the double tracking, judicious use of reverb, EQ, various effects, stereo mix and whatnot making this record sound very different from a rock'n'roll band plugging into their amps and playing, which is pretty much what you get on the first three albums. It's a glorious, kaleidoscopic wall of sound. It even has a choral arrangement and an orchestra.

All the tunes on this album work really well, even Beth which interjects a welcome subdued moment of reflection; to me it works a bit like a quiet passage in a powerful classical music piece. It's all killer. Highlights though - Detroit Rock City for sure. The audio drama, if I can call it that, that introduces it is a masterstroke. So is the segue into King of the Night Time World, via a very loud car crash. What else .. Shout It Out Loud is an absolute banger.  Flaming Youth has a pleasingly anthemic feel and a lovely energy in the rhythm guitar - I think it owes something to The Who.

You surely can't fail to be entertained by the lyrical content on Great Expectations. And just to drive home the point that this record is a sort of Pepper-esque art record as well as a powerful rock album, there's an atmospheric, other-wordly short piece that closes the whole record out (and interestingly the first time I heard the CD, this took me by surprise - I do not remember it being on the original vinyl album and although I still have it, I have no way to check).

I listened to the original CD release rather than the Resurrected version, although I have both. I was interested to read that the lead guitar part on Sweet Pain (again what a fantastic rhythm guitar sound) was played by Alice Cooper's guitar player. Ace's own take (which is on Resurrected) doesn't sound that bad, but the other lad definitely does it better. Actually I've just read that he plays a bit on some of the other tunes as well. Dick Wagner.

What an album.

Yes, indeed. Kiss' crowning achievement. After the succes of Alive!, where they finally got hold of some money and the idea of being a hardcore rock and roll band was in the rearviewmirror, the show aspect took over (for a while at least). Hiring Ezrin was a mastermind idea, the band wanted to 'be taken more seriously' and the record company was laughing all the way to the bank.

Here's 3 things not everyone knows about this album:

1. the big guitar sound comes form Ezrin bag of tricks, there are grand piano chords under the guitars, toned to the point where only the body is audible and fades into the guitar. Great trick.
2. God of Thunder was written by Paul Stanley. Yes boys and girls and it ran a lot faster too. Stanley was obviously disappointed but of course, it's now Simmons' signature song. he must be pissed not coming up with it himself ;D
3. King of the Night Time World is a cover. Wait, what? Yes, Stanley changed the arrangement just enough to get a songwriting credit for it.

The original:

Now, the music on this album is very dear to me. The only small distraction for me is Beth, I am just not a fan, but it's short enough to listen through and I could not imagine hearing the album without it after so many times hearing it.

Detroit Rock City is perhaps Kiss' most iconic song, used on more than half the shows they did as opener. The dual guitar lead in the middle was thought up by Ezrin on acoustic, who had a flamenco style solo in mind. The drumparts are fantastic, the drive is phenomenal, amost as if Criss isn't playing on this one. But he was, Ezrin slaving him until he honed his part to perfection.

KotNTW: like said, a cover but what a song! Unconventional in terms of arrangement and again the double guitar part in used. Not that often played live, it feels like it since it was on Alive II, but it is a rare song in the live set. They revived it for the initial '96 Reunion tour but it as retired after again.

God of Thunder, well the studio version is really just that: a studio marvel. The whole bag of tricks opens up here. Criss's drums were recorded in a large open space to get the big sound. The kids in the middle section are Ezrin's kids btw, he used them on more than just this production (also on Lou Reeds Berlin). They wore helments with built-in walkie talkies and were running around the studio.

Great Expectations. That's the Brooklyn Boys Choir on there..on a Kiss album! This was a clear precursor to Simmons' solo album.

Flaming Youth: yes that is Dick Wagner playing the solo there. And what a solo, fantastic! They are also hired a calliope, that's the effect in the chorus you hear  :) Indeed an anthemic song, rarely played live though.

Sweet Pain.. aahhh, Wagner again indeed. The story about this is that Ace was playing cards and refused ot show up studio duty. Whether that's true or not? We'll never know. Hardly ever played live.

Shout it Out Loud, a live staple, next to Rock and Roll All Nite their most anthemic song. The band had covered (in their earlier Wicked Lester incarnation) a Hollies song called (we wanna) Shout it Out Loud, and Gene figured he'd use the title. I like the bassline, that pumps and pushes instead of laying it down in the verse.

Beth, written by Criss (well, maybe..) and a former bandmate, originally titled Beck for a former girlfriend of that band (band was Chelsea, they released a not so great album). The acoustic guitars you hear somewhere buried in the mix? Dick Wagner. Was an encore song for many tours to come. Problem...well, Criss couldn't really carry a tune, much to Simmons dismay.

Do You Love Me, largely written by Kim Fowley (songwriter) and arranged by Ezrin. It's a real Paul Stanley song, it's one of his favourites, bells and all..

Indeed, what an album, in whichever incarnation. I have the various versions as well, original vinyl/cd, remastered, the resurrected (great job by Ezrin btw). If there's one album they should be remembered by it's this one.

I'm really enjoying these reviews. My only real connection with Kiss was buying and enjoying the Kiss Symphony DVD. I can't honestly remember what brought it to my attention at the time but it's something I like to watch now and again. This has certainly made me curious to hear more.

5. Rock and Roll Over (November 1976)

Another album that I bought as a teenager, some time after I bought Alive II. This time though, I can't claim to have played it regularly. I played it twice, maybe three times. Then I put it away and didn't bother with it again. Meh.

Listening to it again today for the first time in over four decades, I must say I was pleasantly surprised. A bit. It's decently recorded and produced but after the full-on, powerful sophistication of Destroyer, it seems very ordinary. The production especially is very basic compared to its predecessor even if (arguably) a bit more professional than the first three. It's a big step backward in ambition.

Still - I can't be too hard on an album that provided Alive II with some of its best moments, I Want You and Calling Dr Love especially. And as a whole, it was better than I remembered. But the other tunes aren't that special. It sounds a bit louder than Dressed To Kill but it doesn't really sparkle the way that album does and it bears no comparison whatever with Destroyer.

Did Gene pay Nigel Tufnel and David St Hubbins to write the lyrics to Love 'Em and Leave 'Em?

I must say Ace plays really well on this record - he knocks out some pretty nimble solos. Speaking of operating a guitar, I once owned a Kiss chord book and according to that, the first line of the chorus of Ladies Room is

Meet, meat you in the ladies' room

.. possibly not the spelling you expect on the second word there. That book was next to useless; never attempt to play Kiss songs using the cowboy chords.

I knew Hard Luck Woman was intended to be touted to Rod Stewart but I'd forgotten how heavily it borrows from Maggie May. It doesn't merely have a Xerox copy of the ascending acoustic guitar motif, it even has hints of Ronnie Wood's brilliant solo.

Anyway nice to hear it again, but honestly I don't really feel like I've missed much by ignoring this record since the 1970s.

It's not Maggie May that Hard Luck Woman steals from. It's You Wear It Well. But I think some of the solo guitar pluckery is nicked from Maggie May, in terms of style anyway.

The direct response by the band to the very produced Destroyer because, by Stanley's admission, "They chickened out" at the thought of taking it further. Besides, Ezrin was otherwise engaged.
Whereas Destroyer was a Stanley/Simmons album, this was much more a Frehley/Criss record. Which is odd if you consder there's no Frehley composition on this one. But he enjoyed imself tremendously on this one - he got along very well with Eddie Kramer, the producer of duty. Kramer, much more than Ezrin had very much a live philosophy and that 's clearly audible. This album is sonically exceptional, not just for the time, but still today. It has a depth and warmth to it that I struggle to find on any hard rock album recorded back in '76.
it was recorded in an empty theater in the round making use of nearly all space they had to their disposal.

The songs then, well there's some things I like a lot and some less than so. So is it all fresh material?
No. baby Driver was a song Criss had from a former band (Lips), it was sped up a bit and he hated that but relented, he needed a song on the album no? Not very good though... The other Criss sung song, Hard Luck Woman, has always been a bit of a sore spot for me. It was a live song at all (the Alive II version was also not part f the set and was not recorded live). On the other hand, Criss' instrument contribution was great: his drumming on his album is very, very good. Maybe the best he ever did, or would do.

The live version of I Want You was for the longest time, my favourite Kiss song and hearing it today I still like it a lot. It is well stuctured, played very tight, has a fantastic guitar solo and is just well thought out.
Stanley also brought in Take Me, Mr. Speed and Makin' Love. All more or less cut from the same cloth.  I like Makin' Love the best, Take Me is quite ok (and was part of the live set for a couple of years) and Mr. Speed, well, an album needs to be filled, right? The main riff is very cool though.
A short note on Makin' Love, you can hear a little squeek in the chorus, that is the bassdrumpedal. Wait, where did we hear that beofre? Ah yes! Led Zeppelin! The band were big fans...
Simmons meanwhile dove into his box of demos and used the same demo (Rock and Rolls Royce) he used for Sweet Pain for Love 'em, Leave 'em. Listen to them side by side, same guitar lick in the verse. Not a great song, See You in Your Dreams, another quick, almost Dressed to Kill like track, Ladies Room, well, the tempo doesn't do it any favours here. The Alive II version has so much more energy. The big one is Dr. Love of course and I love that one. It is so good, I'd almost forgive them for what they did to the intro on Double Platinum.

What is interesting to note is that this was recorded little over 6 months after Destroyer and what a huge difference! The 6 month turnaround was because the record company couldn't handle returns. In those days it was customary to return unsold albums after about 6 months, because the momentum was over. But if there was a new album, well then they needed catalogue material in the store. It wore the band down though...

What is very prominent on this album though is that Simmons and Stanley mainly were developing themselves as songwriters , Simmons being the most prolific of the 2. Not to be confused with the having the best quality songs.

So, more to the point, decent songs but overall to me a little less than Destroyer.

I quite like Rock and Roll Over. I'd read before that the band wanted more of a 'rock' record with a live feel to it and that's just what Kramer gave them. If they'd not "chickened out" we could have got The Elder at the time rather than years later!
Thee are songs on here that are real, proper hard rock. Making Love is the best and is probably the closest to their heroes, Led Zeppelin, they ever got. The riff and the guitar sound is pure Jimmy. I agree that I Want You is a good song where they play the old 'dynamics' trick of quiet passages punctuated by riffola. Ladies Room is good but, I agree, far too slow. Having said that, I do think that the songs on Alive II are played too fast and they lose a little power for that reason. It almost feels like they are in a race to reach the end of the 'gig'.
Unfortunately there is also some typical Kiss rubbish on here too. Imagine if they'd have released just one record in 1976, it would have been awesome. (their 70s studio albums always seemed to portray, in songwriting terms,  a battleI between  Zeppelin and early Beatles and Rock and Roll Over suffers too from this). I guess that the best songs from Destroyer would have sounded like the Double Platinum versions but a record with the best (heaviest) tracks from both records would have been truly spectacular. Bill Aucoin missed a trick there IMHO.

Quote from: David L on October 13, 2023, 08:40:27 AMBill Aucoin missed a trick there IMHO.

Aucoin was a visionary but a bad manager financially. It was Neil Bogart, president of Casablanca that pulled those strings. He had his nose so far up the Columbian product all he could see was money or the lack thereof. Hence the abundance of albums in those days.

On Bogart: maybe some of you have seen the 10 episode show Vinyl with Bobby Cannavale. It's a bit over dramatized, but it paints a good picture of the record industry in early 70s America. Bogarts character is brought up in one of the episodes his main contribution being 'bringing the coke'. His habit was well known...

Last thing on Bogart, he was the president of Buddha records prior to Casablanca. And of course he named his own venture that... Well you know why. A man and his ego.

I love Rock and Roll over.  I rate it higher than Destroyer.  Great artwork too..

To help prevent RSI here's something that popped into my YouTube feed today.

https://youtu.be/cdfNbfNbb5g?si=RnBmNwZluLGvFLBS

It always amuses me when Paul has those little digs at Gene. All part of the game I know, but to his credit he takes it very well.

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on October 13, 2023, 11:23:38 AMTo help prevent RSI here's something that popped into my YouTube feed today.

https://youtu.be/cdfNbfNbb5g?si=RnBmNwZluLGvFLBS

It always amuses me when Paul has those little digs at Gene. All part of the game I know, but to his credit he takes it very well.

Will watch this later, but Paul has become a real douche.  Much prefer Gene.

You just know that they're going to part ways and then only ever meet in the boardroom.  Gene and Paul, for men that have worked together for half a century, don't seem to have too much of a brotherly bond...

It's not that bad. They have been at odds at some point, mainly in the 80s when they were out to prove themselves, but not anymore. It's more of a game in public. They have the same interest always, their families know each other very well.

It's really a brotherlike relationship they have.

When they break up at some point, and that will not be after the last show, they could go on forever as a legacy band, just not a touring band, they still have that connection.

I remember Shannon publicly criticising Stanley after the latter publicly criticised Simmons after he had made some I'll judged comment after, I think Robin Williams death.

Would have been funny if Simmons had criticised Stanley after his ridiculous LGBT statement he made recently, that no one had asked him for....was complete gobbledigook.

Love Gun (June 1977)

Once again, an album that I bought as a teenager, probably in 1978. I liked it, it did 'stick' unlike Rock and Roll Over and I played it often although I've never been completely convinced by it.

It does have some banging tunes and makes a substantial contribution to Alive II - including I Stole Your Love which is an absolute highlight of that second live album for me - proper, kicking, highly-charged rock'n'roll - and of course the title track which is deservedly a classic.

One thing that struck me while listening to Tomorrow and Tonight is its obvious debt to the Stones. I think it was probably conceived to be in the same vein as Rock and Roll All Nite. It doesn't have nearly the same power or energy. It's not one of the better songs on this album and it's probably my least favourite of the live songs on Alive II. But slowed down a little, with a bit of Keef attitude on the rhythm guitar and a bit of swing on the drums, it could have had a nice swagger. In particular I think that the distortion on the rhythm guitar robs it of a bit of bite.

The trouble is - Eddie Kramer, while a very capable sound engineer, was to my mind not a great producer. These songs are well-recorded but they aren't really well-produced, even allowing for the proposition that he preferred a more authentic, "live" sound. A really good producer (for example) wouldn't have put that phaser on the drums for a couple of bars in one of the Rock and Roll Over songs. I can't remember which one but it really sounds superfluous. And more to the point he would have got more out of the songs on both these albums.

No assessment of Love Gun could fail to mention Christine Sixteen, a song which necessarily divides opinion. I note that Geoff Barton, well known to Rush fans as a champion of the Canadian trio's work in the UK music press in the '70s but also a huge Kiss fan, is uncomfortable with it in the present day. Well - personally I like it. Gene's spoken section that starts with "I don't usually say things like this to girls your age.." never fails to raise a laugh.

Actually rock songs about underage girls are not that uncommon, Led Zeppelin and Motorhead both contributed one to their canon. At least Gene Simmons had the good taste to ensure that the fictional Christine had at least reached the age of consent. I think that's commendable.

Shock Me, Frehley's debut as a singer, is one of the better tunes and deserves its place on Alive II.

But - Hooligan. A real low point. Did Peter write these lyrics?

Dropped out of school when I was 22
What can I do to satisfy you?

I mean - Gene's lyrics come across as dumb sometimes but at least they have a sense of humour. Speaking of which - how could he have missed a clear opportunity to rhyme "perfection" with "erection" in Plaster Caster? It's a bit late now but let me help:

The plaster's gettin' harder
And my love is perfection
A token of my love
It's my erection

The album closes on another low point, Then She Kissed Me. Why? Who is it supposed to appeal to? I just can't imagine what they were thinking.

To sum up - some classic songs, a couple of good tunes even among those that didn't get an airing on the live album. But a couple of clunkers. To me it's an improvement on Rock and Roll Over but nowhere near as ambitious or powerful as Destroyer.

I think this is the last album of the real-deal, classic Kiss period closed off by Alive II.

Love Gun was recorded in little over 3 weeks with the same team that did Rock and Roll Over. The biggest difference was the venue:it was recorded at the Record Plant, the studio Kramer and Hendrix built.
Stanley went in to demo his songs and they were recorded verbatim. In fact Love Gun (the song) is, apart from the solo and drums, all Stanley. Guitars and bass. I Stole Your Love and Tomorrow and Tonight were done in similar fashion. If we ever get to Alive II you will get to learn how love T&t really was.

Simmons on his turn did all the bass and guitars on Plaster Caster. Christine Sixteens piano player of duty is Kramer and those 2 songs plus the quite boring Got Love for Sale were demoed with the Van Halen brothers.

Hooligan is indeed horrid, the main lyric was written by the studio engineer, I can only imagine what Criss conjured up here..

Then She Kissed Me was Stanley's idea. I'm sure he's not too happy anymore now..

My favourite Simmons song here is Almost Human, I just love that one. It is so character like, just fantastic.
But my no. 1 song here has to be Shock Me. Finally Frehley sings and the main riff for this thing is really quite something. As is the solo. In fact all solos on Love Gun are very good. Ace became a lot better player as years progressed.

As an album it flows OK, but it is a typical album for a successful band. A handful of great songs with filler for the rest of the album.

It was released June 30th 1977, the band finished up in the studio on May 29th.. I'd like to see any modern day artist try that...

It's also the first Kiss album with special inserts, in this case the fold out gun. Not necessarily as a gift to the fans, although it is sold  like that, no it was mainly to outsmart pirated copies. They could print the albums, but copying the insert was something else. Clever business again..

(https://i.postimg.cc/KzJNd5Sw/Love-gun.jpg)

I love signed prints...and I love the artwork for Love Gun.  Here's a promo poster from 1977. Beautifully signed at some point in 96.

Alive II: Side 4 (October 1977)

Since there's a studio half-album tacked on at the end of Alive II, I thought it was worth a brief re-evaluation here.

I bought Alive II at the end of 1977, I've always loved it and most times I listened to it, I listened to the studio side as well. For sure I wouldn't have played these songs as often as I did if they weren't packaged with a brilliant live album - nonetheless I do think this is mostly pretty good stuff.

To me the first four songs lean a bit more into beefy, more generic hard rock than Love Gun or Rock and Roll Over. Possibly not quite as much flamboyant energy as you expect from Kiss tunes of this period, generally. That said, apart from Any Way You Want It, another inexplicable early '60s period piece that does nothing for me at all - these are strong songs.

I was fascinated to learn that Rocket Ride is actually an Ace solo tune with Peter on drums - the Spaceman performs all the guitar and bass parts, as well as the vocal. The little guitar solo he tacks on at the end is pure Jimmy Page.

On the other hand, he doesn't appear on the other songs at all, something I didn't find out for many years later. I was always impressed with the lead guitar on Larger than Life, especially. It's Bob Kulick.

I guess relations must have been a bit strained at this point. Nonetheless, between the four of them and the hired help they came up with a pretty creditable short chapter in the studio canon here.

Alive II was definitely the end of an era...although the next studio album was another of my favourites...they were certainly less of a 'band' by that point.

Ace was absent for all but Rocket Ride. BTW, that not Criss, that's Anton Fig on Rocket Ride, he would go on to do Ace's solo album, Dynasty and Unmasked as well.

I love Rocket Ride and Think Larger than Life is quite good. The other 3 songs I find less interesting. Kulick was brought in under strict orders to sound like Ace, keeping up appearances. But of course he sounds totally different. The first phrase on the LTL solo immediately raises eyebrows, Frehley? No way.

The best part about Alive 2 is how it is a 7 track studio album. Tomorrow and Tonight was tracked the same day as Larger than Life and Hard Luck Woman was tracked at an afternoon soundcheck. Neither song was part of the live show. But since they did not want any overlap with Alive! they needed to fill some gaps. They had an 75 minute show that included Take Me and Hooligan, opened wit I Stole Your Love (never understood why they did not used that for an opener on the album) but there was also old material, the would have not been able to release a 2LP that way.

It was quite clear the band was wildly disfunctional by now, only exacerbated by the following 4 solo albums, a big part of the Kiss legacy, and the subsequent shift in style.

I've just brought my vinyl copy of Alive II down from the loft to have a sentimental browse through the packaging.

(https://i.ibb.co/Vv7qgLp/aliveiicover.jpg)

Here's something that interested me when I was 17. The album came with a picture booklet, pictured below called The Evolution Of Kiss.

The centrefold image is a group shot, but it's actually a composite of two different photos.

(https://i.ibb.co/0ByTWrs/aliveii-inside.jpg)

How do I know this? Well - if you look carefully, you can see a dismembered guitar headstock sprouting out of the mic stand on the right.

(https://i.ibb.co/jT1KCZt/aliveii-comp.jpg)

Well spotted. When it came time to do the cover, there was no material to make up a cover shot. That's how the cover came about, picking separate shots to create a unified look.

The Gatefold inside was basically setting off all Pyro at the same time. They probably had 10 cameras rolling and clicking  at the same time. Imagine missing a shot like that!


Very cool that you kept the book intact btw, not many of those survived.

Enjoying this thread.  Thanks chaps!

What really makes your head spin is that everything talked about so far, happened in a time span of 3 years and 8 months.
Debut was released Feb '74 and Alive II Oct' 77.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread. It hasn't inspired me to go and have a listen though. Just not my cup of tea.

Quote from: dom on October 15, 2023, 10:03:03 PMI've really enjoyed reading this thread. It hasn't inspired me to go and have a listen though. Just not my cup of tea.

Might not be your cup of tea. Might not be your tequila or vodka and orange juice but it could be your.................

"COLD GIN!"

7. Dynasty (May 1979)

So: a couple of years pass, during which time each member of the band has recorded a solo album. I bought Ace's and Paul's for myself just before Christmas 1978. I liked both of them, Paul's especially. I didn't buy Gene's until a few years ago. Never had any interest in Peter's.

I can't remember where I was the first time I heard I Was Made For Lovin' You, but I very well remember the dismay, the disbelief - contempt even - when I realised how far they were prepared to go to sell out. I did buy Dynasty though when it hit the shops, perhaps out of loyalty, perhaps out of optimism. But I didn't like it. It just wasn't the same band any more. I probably played it two or three times. It felt cynical.

The extraordinary dissonance between the band's established persona and the reality of this album is nowhere more evident than in the official video for Sure Know Something. Pay attention to Gene Simmons: the grimace, the menacing pose. If you were watching with the volume turned down you might be forgiven for thinking the God of Thunder was unleashing earth-shaking bottom end mayhem from that axe-shaped bass with the fake blood on the blade, but nope - he's laying down a tastefully subdued funky soul groove.


Of course the whole album isn't soft rock AOR dance music but actually that's the other problem with this record - it has an identity crisis; it doesn't seem to know what it wants to be. It's a mish-mash of styles. A bit like The Beatles' 'White Album' in a way. It doesn't feel like the project of a band with a single, coherent idea for an album. Or a band with a single coherent idea for a band, come to that.

Having said all that - listening to it again today for the first time in many years, I did enjoy it in parts. I've heard I Was Made For Lovin' You many times over the years of course, as most of us have and now that I don't particularly care what sort of band Kiss wanted to be in 1979, I admit I quite like it. It was nice to hear Magic Touch again. And Sure Know Something is actually a pretty classy, soft rock / soul tune.

I've always liked Hard Times, definitely the highlight of the record for me. Unusually for Ace, it feels sincere. It's not a shallow cock rock tune like Shock Me or Rocket Ride.

Ace's cover of 2,000 Man isn't bad. I don't like the other Frehley tune at all.

I surprised myself by quite enjoying Dirty Livin', I never used to. Gene's tunes on here are nothing special.

Overall - it has its moments but it's patchy and incoherent and so much of it is such a departure from the band's established identity that I can't help thinking they were letting their fans down.

How I become a Kissfan, I have described that elsewhere but it was around this period. Dynasty was my first Kiss album and it'll always have a special place for me because of that, but there are issues with this album...big issues.

A word on the solo albums though, before I get to Dynasty. The idea was of course coined by management: tensions rose high in the band, Frehley had all but quit but remained onboard because of this. The were unified by the covers and the Kiss logo on the sleeve, plus if you bought all four of them you had a set of posters that locked  into each other.

Now, Neil Bogart (again) thought of a campaign to bring the to the publics attention: "shipped platinum!" and so they did, they were also retuned in bundles..

For me the Peter Criss does nothing, zero. I don't understand the album, on any level.

Gene threw everything but the kitchen sink it, had around 30 guest starts (including Cher, Joe Perry, Rick Nielsen and a slew of musicians). It was even rumored he did not play 1 single instrument on the album himself. He re-recorded a Rock and Roll over tune, added a Disney tune and all sorts of nonsensical things. He did however, produce one of the best songs out of the 4 albums: Radioactive.

Paul did his album mostly by himself with 2 backing bands in 2 studios: 1 in New York and 1 in LA. Some guests were there but not much. If you hear these songs it's about half a Kiss album, it's missing the Simmons songs that's all. Also: that's not keyboards you here, that's an E Bow.

By far my favorite, and a top 3 Kiss universe album to me, is Ace's. I love this album. I really like Ace's voice, there's a lazyness in his singing I enjoy, but also a directness and honesty. Also: Anton Fig is phenomenal on drums on this one. New York Groove still resonates after all these years. No matter which TV shows recorded in NY is aired, at some point you will hear it :-)

Right, Dynasty then. Again Anton Fig, Criss only handled drumming duties on Dirty Livin'. Ace has 3 songs here, I really like 2,000 Man and Hard Times, again an honest lyric here.

Simmons fails on all fronts for me: X Ray Eyes? Charisma? Spare me, do better. Half cocked stuff with bad lyrics.

No, the ones that shine here are the Stanley songs. And of course, there's outside writers and a producer who helped a lot. But Magic Touch is my highlight.
My main gripe here is the production, it sounds weak and wimpy. No balls, no guitars. At the time, I was 9, I ate it up. But over time I've grown to not like the sound at all.

This of course, was also the album where it all unraveled. The band was no longer a band, Criss was about to be fired / left (the jury will always be out on that one) still they did a megatour in the States. Funnily enough they had this little block of solo songs squeezed in. They did Move On, Radioactive, NY Groove and  Tossin' and Turnin. Some songs were dropped early on, some survived. Also, it was a rare occasion where DRC or Deuce did not open the set: it was King of the Night Time World as set opener.

Sure Know Something holds a nice memory for me. Somehow, the 7" single came into my possession. I know I didn't buy it so I think a friend must have had it and given it to me as it was also on the album which he owned. I was really getting into bass guitar at this time. I was hugely influenced by Geddy and tried to play little else. Geddy's frantic Prog lines were the goal for me. Nothing came close or held my interest for any length of time. I think Rush are to blame for me having a fairly narrow bandwidth of musical taste.

That has only changed quite recently unfortunately. Still, I have a lot to aim at and enjoy now. But this Kiss bass line intrigued me, quite simple for a novice, but addictive and hypnotic. I think I was on the Peavey T40 at this time. My first proper bass guitar having been unable to find a Fender Precision in those days of Fender production difficulties.

I wonder if I still have the vinyl single somewhere. I haven't seen it in so long. I seem to remember quite a colourful label but might be wrong.

Bit off topic, but Kiss' current tour drumtech is Lorne Wheaton, aka Gump. He was Neil's as well. There's a little video up on Youtube where Eric Singer (current Kiss drummer) shows us his setup in London and Gump is there, but also - I have not seen this anywhere else - there seems to be a little Neil tribute going on on he frontheads of the bassdrums. I could be wrong but it seems like a Rush starman is on there..judge for judge for yourself..around the 35 seconds mark

Good spot! Without a doubt.

(http://bikediary.uk/images/kiss_starman.jpg)

Yes, I think you're right. Nice touch!

8: Unmasked (May 1980)

This is an album I'd pretty much forgotten about. In fact if I hadn't found it in my box of old LPs in the loft at the weekend while searching for my old vinyl copy of Alive II, I would have claimed, in this very post, that I never owned it. But apparently I did. I must have bought it when it came out.

I certainly don't remember ever listening to it. I'm sure I did though, because one or two of the songs are familiar.

It's pop music in essence, which in my book is not a bad thing in itself, but in most cases there's something really lightweight and frothy about the tunes on here which I don't find appealling at all. The Bangles and the Go-Gos rocked harder than this. Maybe Bananarama did.

Actually I really like (Gene's) Naked City, the chorus was instantly familiar. Gene's other songs are decent. But all of them are crying out for a more ballsy production. Did Gene write the lyrics for You're All That I Want? They're so uncharacteristically innocent and normal. None of the usual cartoon-macho excess testosterone posturing.

Ace seems to have raised his songwriting game a bit - all of his songs on here are pretty good, even if they sound a bit limp-wristed. Torpedo Girl is a wacky tune. I love it.

I think this album sounds a bit less disjointed than its predecessor. Whereas Paul easily has the best stuff on Dynasty, here it's Ace who delivers the goods in my opinion. I found all of Paul's songs on here (all co-written with Vini Poncia) very forgettable and I've proved that experimentally. I'd forgotten all of them.

Anyway the whole record has been castrated with a really gutless production job. The rhythm guitars throughout sound like they've been recorded through $20 transistor radios.

One or two decent tunes but I'm unlikely to revisit this album except for Torpedo Girl, which I'm glad to have rediscovered and possibly Naked City.

You said it right, Unmasked misses any type of punch. Again produced by pop producer Vini Poncia, again missing Criss (who was de facto out of the band only to make an apperancce in the Shandi video), it does feel like the lesser accomplished brother of Dynasty.

You also hit the nail on the head picking out Naked City, I love that song. Finally a riff I can relate to, it has that feel to it Almost Human as well. The whole song just sounds like a walk in a lamppost lit city. It was largel written by Bob Kulick though, he came up with the riff.

Ace's songs are great here too, I think I like Two Sides of the Coin the best though. Ace had this thing by now about letting poeople play on his songs, he played all guitars and bass, so no Simmons on this one.

And out of all the Paul songs I have always loved Tomorrow, that one deserved better that being on this album. Even though he has gone on record tha he didn't like the pop sound, admittedly his songs sound like they were written with this production in mind.
 
The rest is not necessarly bad (although the already mentioned Shandi is horrid but also a huge hit in Australia), but it doesn't bring about any spark. That is not surprising considering the state the band was in. There were a lot of outside writers, Anton Fig played drums again.

The subsequent tour was interesting. It was booked, I had tickets to a local venue (Ahoy' Rotterdam) and was to with my stepfather, but the band called it off. They returned later that year with a new drummer (Eric Carr) in a venue much further away, and I didn't get a chance to see them. I was devastated.

The tour was also interesting as in they ventured out some more, so far the band had extensively toured the US, went to Europe once and twice to Japan. They were now adding Australia. The album exploded over there, true Kissmania. It was said at the time 1 out of 5 Australians owned a Kiss album...

My Kiss fandom didn't stretch to buying Unmasked. That would have been too far  ;)

9. Music from The Elder (November 1981)

Once again, an album that I faithfully bought when it came out, back in 1981. But I'd read a review of the album by Geoff Barton in Sounds magazine, and had good reason to expect it to be different from the previous two albums, which had singularly failed to impress me.

It certainly was quite different. A concept album, apparently based on an idea for a film that never was, with the various tunes appearing to be based on the narrative of the film.

I liked this album, although I was never quite sure what to make of it. It wasn't the Kiss that I'd grown to love as a teenager. But it certainly wasn't the lightweight, overtly commercial pop froth that had characterised Unmasked either. It was artful, purposeful. It sounded great; easily the best-sounding Kiss album since Destroyer (and it's no coincidence that both were produced by Bob Ezrin). And although they had some outside help, there are some lovely, sophisticated songwriting moments, enhanced here and there by orchestral arrangements.

It's very cinematic; operatic even in places. Lots of light and shade and reflective moments. It has choirs, mediaeval horns even.

I confess I hadn't listened to it for years but I really enjoyed acquainting myself with this album again, this afternoon. I listened to the CD version, which has a different running order from the LP I bought 42 years ago and it flows very nicely. It's a proper whole album experience, not just a collection of songs.

Highlights? The Oath, which has a terrific, driving rock feel. Dark Light, in which Ace invokes Sodom, Gomorrah, perversion and hate. Crikey! I recall that Geoff Barton was particularly fond of that one.

And I've always really liked Mr Blackwell, which back in the day I assumed to have been written about a music critic who'd panned the band at some point. I don't know if that's true or not. But what a tune, with that dark, echoey bass and sneering vocal.

There's a guitar refrain in Under The Rose that I'm sure I've heard somewhere else. A Zeppelin tune I can't put my finger on? It's bugging me at the moment but it'll come to me. Actually the opening minute or two of that song reminds me of Pink Floyd's Pigs.

Overall - I don't think it's quite a classic and it didn't give birth to any crowd-pleasing bangers. But I think it's a worthy effort to do something different and distinctive. And that's especially welcome from a band which more often than not liked to chase trends.

Quote from: Slim on October 22, 2023, 09:35:29 PM9. Music from The Elder (November 1981)

Once again, an album that I faithfully bought when it came out, back in 1981. But I'd read a review of the album by Geoff Barton in Sounds magazine, and had good reason to expect it to be different from the previous two albums, which had singularly failed to impress me.

It certainly was quite different. A concept album, apparently based on an idea for a film that never was, with the various tunes appearing to be based on the narrative of the film.

I liked this album, although I was never quite sure what to make of it. It wasn't the Kiss that I'd grown to love as a teenager. But it certainly wasn't the lightweight, overtly commercial pop froth that had characterised Unmasked either. It was artful, purposeful. It sounded great; easily the best-sounding Kiss album since Destroyer (and it's no coincidence that both were produced by Bob Ezrin). And although they had some outside help, there are some lovely, sophisticated songwriting moments, enhanced here and there by orchestral arrangements.

It's very cinematic; operatic even in places. Lots of light and shade and reflective moments. It has choirs, mediaeval horns even.

I confess I hadn't listened to it for years but I really enjoyed acquainting myself with this album again, this afternoon. I listened to the CD version, which has a different running order from the LP I bought 42 years ago and it flows very nicely. It's a proper whole album experience, not just a collection of songs.

Highlights? The Oath, which has a terrific, driving rock feel. Dark Light, in which Ace invokes Sodom, Gomorrah, perversion and hate. Crikey! I recall that Geoff Barton was particularly fond of that one.

And I've always really liked Mr Blackwell, which back in the day I assumed to have been written about a music critic who'd panned the band at some point. I don't know if that's true or not. But what a tune, with that dark, echoey bass and sneering vocal.

There's a guitar refrain in Under The Rose that I'm sure I've heard somewhere else. A Zeppelin tune I can't put my finger on? It's bugging me at the moment but it'll come to me. Actually the opening minute or two of that song reminds me of Pink Floyd's Pigs.

Overall - I don't think it's quite a classic and it didn't give birth to any crowd-pleasing bangers. But I think it's a worthy effort to do something different and distinctive. And that's especially welcome from a band which more often than not liked to chase trends.

That opinion echoes my own, almost to the letter

Quote from: Slim on October 22, 2023, 09:35:29 PMThere's a guitar refrain in Under The Rose that I'm sure I've heard somewhere else. A Zeppelin tune I can't put my finger on? It's bugging me at the moment but it'll come to me.

Maybe Cinnamon Girl? The guitar riff I'm thinking off starts off at 1:09 in this Kiss song:

I'd never listened to any of this album before tonight. After reading the review I went straight to Under The Rose thinking I might solve the LZ possibility but I didn't hear it myself. However, I really, really enjoyed the track. I'd never have guessed this was Kiss if I hadn't been told beforehand. It's so folksy English Prog. I'll stream this tomorrow and already I think it's an album I will buy soon. This, and Destroyer. Yes, this is a good thread.

Often referred to as 'close but no guitars' by Simmons and 'the biggest misstep in our career' by Stanley, the Elder is a concept album based on an idea Simmons had.

Of course, at the time the band were on cloud nine in all interviews, which was all they had. No tour for this one, honestly I would have like to have seen them pull this one off!

Frehley was mostly absent, phoning in his rhythm parts (if any) and recording his solos at his home studio, overseen by Ezrin who peddled back and forth between his own studio (in Canada) and Frehley's.

Roughly speaking there are 2 opninions amongst Kissfans: those that did not understand the album then, but get it now & those that did not get it then or now. I am in the third category: I loved it then and now.

The initial running order was not how the band intended it but the record company made them change it to ensure they opened with a single (The Oath). Mind you this was the time where you'd go to the shop and have them put the record on to listen before buying it.

The album itself, well I have a couple of versions. The initial Dutch release on LP that sounds fantastic, the CD, the remastered CD and the half speed LP master in the original running order. It's a bit bass heavy, but it suits the record.

The songs then, the odd ones out are Fanfare and Odyssey. The first one did not feature any of the band of course and Odyssey is a Tony Powers song sung in a very dramatic voice by Stanley. Not his most shining moment but it seems to suit (and set) the mood for the album. Drumming here is not Eric Carr but Allan Schwartzberg. Carr was a very talented boy but this feel he did not get.

Just a Boy is a gorgeous song with Stanley singing falsetto even at some point and Only You a Simmons song that seems popular still (re recorded by Doro Pesch when Simmons produced her album. True to the concept album style the Just a Boy chorus line makes an appearance instrumentally here.

One of the strongest and heaviest songs is Under the Rose, which was largely written by newcomer Eric Carr (who was a big LZ fan indeed). Simmons lend a hand with some chords here and there and I believe Lou Reed had a hand in lyrics. He also had a hand in A World Without Heroes, Dark Light and Mr. Blackwell, a friend of Ezrin he was quick to help.

Speaking of heavy songs: Mr. Blackwell with the stop start pattern is quite something and has that little bit of Gene demonic persona, seems he couldn't quite get rid of that..

A World Without Heroes is a lovely piece of music that was revived during the acoustic Unplugged tour some 15 years later and worked very well in that setting.
Getting to the more Kiss sounding songs then: I, the closer was the lead off single. Drums were overdubbed (Schwartberg again) and it's not quite clear which parts are his or which is Carr. It has a Shout it Out Loud type of exchange of vocals between Simmons and Stanley, strong song. The Oath is a clear Stanley track, and sounds like most Kiss albums even though he tries out his falsetto for the first time on such a strong track.

And then: Frehley's shining moment, Dark Light. That solo.. accompanied only by drums/percussion, is a thing of beauty. It may be the longest solo recorded on any Kiss record.  Originally Don't Run but renamed after Reed rewrote lyrics. I love this song.

Escape from the Island is basically a jam with Frehley, Carr & Ezrin in Ezrin's basement. I have always loved the pace pushing the song forward.

So there you go, it stands outside of the Kiss catalogue, none of it has been played live in a 'normal' Kiss setting. There's probably footage somewhere of band the doing half a version of The Oath or something, but the songs were never part of any setlist.

Frehley would record Breakout - a song he and Carr wrote - on one of his solo outings and the band itself would release Carrjam '81 on revenge as a tribute to the drummer.

I remember the biggest disappointment for me with The Elder was that there was no pictures of the band on the cover or in the packaging.  At the time, that was as important for me as the music.

I do like it, though.  There's plenty of cracking tracks on it....I remember the video for A World Without Heroes was on Saturday morning kids TV.  That was huge for me at the time...

Quote from: captainkurtz on October 23, 2023, 09:53:05 PMI remember the biggest disappointment for me with The Elder was that there was no pictures of the band on the cover.

That's Paul Stanley's hand on the cover  ;D

(https://i.ibb.co/9Trsf7R/paul-elder-door.jpg)

10. Creatures of the Night ((October 1982)

I was pleased, as a 22 year old Kiss fan, by the news that the band had embarked on a more direct, hard rocking approach for their new album. But I well remember playing this for the first time 41 years ago and feeling distinctly underwhelmed. And I'm sorry to report that I didn't like it much when I listened to it again today, either.

The trouble is, the songwriting isn't quite up to scratch, it's mostly in poor taste and the attitude feels contrived.

I think David put his finger on the appeal of the classic Kiss period, when he mentioned the influence of the early Beatles on the band, a few pages back in this thread. The best Kiss material - Shout it Out Loud, I Want You, I Stole Your Love - has some of the same catchy, visceral excitement as a She Loves You or a Can't Buy Me Love. The tunes on this album don't have any of that, for me.

That said - I quite like the title track. It does rock quite nicely. It was the opener at the gig I saw about a year later. But there's not much else that I like on this record.

I Love it Loud must be the dumbest Gene Simmons song I've ever heard, but War Machine isn't far behind.

These songs just feel so very juvenile. Now granted, some of the band's best-loved songs like Dr Love and Christine Sixteen are incredibly juvenile. But they have a sense of fun that makes it work. These ones don't. I find them charmless. Paul's songs on this record mostly feel hackneyed, as well. Vulgar, even. His big power ballad, I Still Love You actually makes me cringe a bit, it's just so cheesy and overcooked.

Despite appearing on the cover (showbiz, eh?) Ace isn't on the record at all. Vinnie Vincent plays most of the guitar parts I think, but very improbably, Robben Ford, best known for grafting tasteful jazz guitar into the blues, plays on a couple of tunes as well.

Killer is pretty much a retread of Purple's Highway Star.

So - yep, it's louder, it rocks harder, I can't deny there's plenty of energy of a sort but in the end it's a hollow experience.  I'm afraid I find the whole thing a bit low rent and trashy.

Steve Farris, later the guitarist in Mr Mister, plays the solo on the title track, I think..

Creatures is my favourite Kiss album. So, there I have said it.

It has a big, ominous sound which I like and it was released at the exact right moment for me. Prior to this, there was a half assed comp called "Kiss Killers" with 4 new tracks out of which "Nowhere to Run" if the best song. 4 Stanley songs, no Simmons ones on that one. It served as a pre-cursor to this album, making use of the same producer that would go on to do CotN and Lick It Up.

The dark sound feels like it's to do with the band's situation. Frehley was out indeed, they were auditioning guitar players while recording. A multitude of names have passed by and some of the solos on the album have indeed been played by various guitarists. The solo in the title song is anyone's guess. It is even rumoured it was Eric Carr that had a stab at it. He played bass on I Still Love You as well. The title has an uncredited bass player even.

Even though I hear and see all your points Slim, I still love the album for what it is: a bold attempt to regain some credibility and with Vincent Cusano (Vinnie Vincent) as co writer on some of the tracks, they succeed. Mind you, there are a lot more outside writers here in play. How about Bryan Adams? He wrote Rock and Roll Hell and co wrote War machine, yes, that's right.

The songs itself then, well I have always found the title track to be a modern-day equivalent to Detroit Rock City, the band used it for years a set opener in the sans make up days, and rightfully so. Very energetic, intense playing - great song. The 2 Simmons sung ones on side 1, Saints & Sinner and RnR Hell (covered by Frehley on one of his solo outings as well - seems he could not quite let go of it all) I enjoy very much. S&S has a sort of downtempo gallop thing going on that I like and RnRH was even attempted live but discarded soon after.

The Stanley sung Keep me Comin has a very Zeppelinesque bridge part and was also tried live, maybe once or twice. Danger was written with the same writer as the title track in the same session, and it shows. High energy, fast paced, purpose driven, great song.

The big divider on the album is I Love it Loud. I have never met a non Kissfan that likes it, and I have never met a Kissfan that dislikes it. It is quintessential Simmons and it was the first song he & Vincent wrote together. I recall seeing the video on TV for the first time, I loved it. I have the 7" with the retractable tongue cover, backed with Killer, another song I enjoy, largely written by Vincent.

I Still Love You is a showcase for Stanley, he used it as such on many live occasions and it was one of my favourite songs on the album for years. I have heard it a bit too much I think, but even though it is very much a Kiss song, it is also not. The minor key ballad thing is not something found much in their catalogue.
And then, You Better Watch Out, Cause I'm A War Machine! A Simmons signature song if there ever was one, it's the '80s equivalent to God of Thunder and a pyro showcase live. I really dig the heavy riff the song starts with, it is a thunderous roar that propels the song into gear. Like a freight train, it's unstoppable.

So, in short: a great, heavy dark sounding Kiss album that Stanley would have loved taking off the make up for. But he had to wait a bit..

Worth noting again, post solo album 1978) Kiss: Dynasty, Unmasked, The Elder, Kiss Killers & Creatures, all in 4 years time written, recorded, toured (minus the Elder) and released. Unreal.

Quote from: Thenop on October 25, 2023, 06:52:35 AMThe Stanley sung Keep me Comin has a very Zeppelinesque bridge part and was also tried live, maybe once or twice.

I did notice a couple of Zeppelin influences in that one - firstly Paul's vocal is definitely Plant-esque, there's even a little vocal flourish that reminded me of Communication Breakdown. Secondly there's a harmony guitar part borrowed from Ramble On.

Kiss Killers: the new songs (June 1982)

I'm not sure I ever knew that there were four studio tracks on a compilation not available anywhere else but I do remember hearing Partners in Crime on the radio way back when so I must have been dimly aware of it on some level at the time. I didn't buy Kiss Killers though.

Perhaps it's unfair to judge these songs in comparison to the rest of the canon because it seems they only exist because the record company asked for something to mark a difference in tone from The Elder. But I listened to them this morning anyway, and for what it's worth:

I'm A Legend Tonight - this is very ordinary, a bit crass.  The lyrics and the music sound like they were written in about ten minutes.

Down On Your Knees - I don't know how many Kiss tunes there are that refer to people being on their knees, but here's another one! This is a bit better. Nothing to write home about but it's a decent rocker with Who-style open power chords. There's a brief appearance of a twangy guitar riff that reminds me of Kenny Loggins' Footloose. Another one co-written with Bryan Adams.

Nowhere to Run - opens with a nice bit of 12-string guitar and quite a likeable effort.

Partners in Crime - oh hello another "down on your knees" reference. If not for the lightweight production this could almost be a tune off the first couple of albums, in the verse. But we're into more radio-friendly territory for the chorus. I quite like it. I may only have heard it once on the radio more than forty years ago, but I remembered it, that must count for something.

General observations - these are all Paul tunes in essence. His voice sounds a bit strained, perhaps they were recorded off the back of a tour. Bob Kulick plays guitar and I think he's been instructed to play like Ace, although he does use a whammy bar here and there.

I like these, on the whole, a bit more than the Creatures material. They sound a bit less postured, a bit less trying-too-hard-to-be-metal.

But I don't like them a lot.

Worded well, Nowhere to run was the winner here.

The 'best of' part is interesting in the sense that it's made up from songs missing on Double Platinum, and added on 2 Dynasty songs. And to add to that: there is no song Simmons wrote, except for the co written Rock and Roll all Nite. No wonder he looks like a plucked hen on the cover...

11. Lick It Up (September 1983)

Well, this surprised me. This is another one (the last one actually) that I bought when it was released. I listened to it a couple of times but it didn't stick, even though I saw the Lick It Up tour a few weeks after I bought it.

I'm a bit ambivalent about this one.

The first thing that struck me on listening to it again is that it's really well recorded and produced, with a really thick, beefy guitar sound and full but punchy bass. The second thing is that - although I will qualify this assessment in the following paragraphs - this is actually pretty decent, powerful hard rock.

I remember this record as being the sort of commercial, MTV-friendly shlock that I normally have very little time for. And that's true in essence but it's a bit classier, a bit more potent than I remembered. It has a bit of a NWOBHM feel about it in places. Yes, it has the shouty chorus background vocals and the echoey drums that make you think of scantily glad girls in 1980s music videos but it hits harder than I expected; it has a real high octane sense of intent.

Vinnie plays very well - he contributes some appropriately fret-melting solos that complement the material nicely.

Looking down the track list, I only remembered the title track and A Million To One. But actually the tune I enjoyed most was And On The 8th Day which starts off in very similar fashion to The Who's I Can See For Miles but actually has a bit of the old classic period Kiss fun and charm. Belting tune! If I was invited to compile a Best of Kiss double CD, and I won't be - I'd find a space for that one.

I enjoyed this album quite a bit more than Creatures of the Night but although it did impress me unexpectedly, it's definitely not classic Kiss.

And this is where I tuned out. I never bought, or listened to a Kiss album released after this one - except for Carnival of Souls, which I downloaded in 2020 because someone told me that they'd attempted a grunge album in the 1990s. And I've only listened to two of the songs on that one.

So - the rest of this thread will be a voyage of discovery for me. Of course I've heard Crazy Nights and the cover of God Gave Rock and Roll To You like everyone has. But apart from those two odd Carnival of Souls songs, I can't think of anything else.

As a fairly regularly Sounds reader I remember being so frustrated by not knowing what NWOBHM stood for. I must have missed a few issues when the term was coined. I suppose I must have been at that age when you are cautious about asking questions like this for fear of being mocked by peers. So it was some time before I one way or another unscrambled the mystery. I can still remember reading it and my teenage brain translating it into an odd sounding word, rather than the acronym. I think I was quite an insecure teen pre-beer.

Looks like you might be flying solo from here, Nop.

I'll download Animalize later, and I expect I'll listen to it tomorrow. I definitely want to hear the whole canon, same as I did with the Stones.

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on October 26, 2023, 01:31:01 PMLooks like you might be flying solo from here, Nop.

Cancel that! 😁

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on October 26, 2023, 01:31:01 PMLooks like you might be flying solo from here, Nop.

I know, I am in good company

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on October 26, 2023, 01:30:06 PMAs a fairly regularly Sounds reader I remember being so frustrated by not knowing what NWOBHM stood for. I must have missed a few issues when the term was coined. I suppose I must have been at that age when you are cautious about asking questions like this for fear of being mocked by peers. So it was some time before I one way or another unscrambled the mystery. I can still remember reading it and my teenage brain translating it into an odd sounding word, rather than the acronym. I think I was quite an insecure teen pre-beer.

"Nuwobum"  :D

Lick It Up, for the most part, was the first decent band effort in years, that's why it sounds coherent. Less outside writers, more focus on the songmaterial.
it is a solid album, it attracted quite some attention and it was the first album with no make up. I recall sitting in front of the TV waiting for the clip to premiere. The gradual build up, and then into the first chorus, we got to see the faces officially without make up for the first time.
Immediate disappointment because Vinnie was, well, not what I expected. Not the face I was looking for behind that Ankh mask. But the rest made sense, the dystopic Mad Max vibe seemed to suit the song and time just fine. 
Recorded by the same producer that did CotN it was received reasonably well but the lead off single did not explode like they wanted (they had to wait for Animalize for that..).

The sound of this album is fantastic, a full rich round sound with big drums, more than enough guitar and a nice top end to the mix that gives it a shine.
Opener Exciter is the blueprint for all Kiss' 80's songs: a fast-paced Stanley song that flies by, has a flashy guitar solo (by Rick Derringer) and a strong chorus.
Simmons strongest track for me is Not for the Innocent, in fact I think it is one of his strongest sans make up songs period. The title track is still played in the set and it segues int and out of the Who's Won't Get Fooled Again. Great chorus this one, big and easy to sing along.
Young and Wasted is song by Simmons on the record but would become an Eric Carr sung vehicle live, speeding it up to breakneck pace.
Gimme More is the equivalent of Danger on CotN, fast and a companion song to the opener.
All hell's Breaking Loose was written by Carr and he was proud of it, and then Stanley stuck a rap (kind of) part in it and he hated it. Not their best song on here to say the least. I Million to One was an exercise for Stanley again, he was gradually gravitating to the Big Ballads Michale Bolton style (more on that later).
Fits like a Glove was another juvenile Simmons' attempt at being sort of funny. A live staple in the 80's though. Especially the middle part (A Hot Knife, Through Butter).
The last 2 songs could never really interest me, they just sound kind of bland to me.
A good effort, a step down from Creatures for me, but still very enjoyable.

Quote from: Thenop on October 26, 2023, 02:28:56 PMSimmons strongest track for me is Not for the Innocent, in fact I think it is one of his strongest sans make up songs period. The title track is still played in the set and it segues in and out of the Who's Won't Get Fooled Again.

Couldn't quite believe this when I read it, so I did a YouTube search. Very odd to intersperse a song with a serious and articulate message like Won't Get Fooled Again with Lick it Up, but at least they don't do the lyrics.

Even odder for me is to see the band in makeup doing what is probably their best-known non-makeup tune.

Lick it up was their very last essential record, for me.  I absolutely loved Animalize in 1984, but listening to it today, it's pretty ropey.

Quote from: captainkurtz on October 26, 2023, 10:59:36 PMLick it up was their very last essential record, for me.  I absolutely loved Animalize in 1984, but listening to it today, it's pretty ropey.

Let's see what Slim's Music Oracle has to say about that, shall we?

Quote from: Slim on October 26, 2023, 09:01:34 PM

Quote from: Thenop on October 26, 2023, 02:28:56 PMSimmons strongest track for me is Not for the Innocent, in fact I think it is one of his strongest sans make up songs period. The title track is still played in the set and it segues in and out of the Who's Won't Get Fooled Again.

Even odder for me is to see the band in makeup doing what is probably their best-known non-makeup tune.

They often did Crazy Crazy Nights and God Gave Rock and Roll to you as well...

Heaven's on Fire as well, which was a bigger song than Lick It Up.
Not sure whether GGRnR to you was actually played, they use it as an outro tape after shows, kind of what Maiden does with Always look at the bright side of life.

Not sure I've ever heard Heaven's on Fire. I hadn't heard of it before I started this thread, unless I've forgotten about it.

12: Animalize (September 1984)

By 1984, I don't have much of an interest in traditional rock music. I remember that I did buy the Diamond Head album Canterbury that year, and I liked it. I still listened to ZZ Top a lot as I recall, although not the later, MTV-friendly material. But I've definitely moved on. By this time I'm listening mainly to contemporary British artists like Prefab Sprout, The Blue Nile, The Smiths, Scritti Politti, Style Council. Intelligent, thoughtful music.

Certainly, I never had much tolerance for the hair metal bands who came to prominence in the '80s. That flashy, commercial, corporate stuff like Warrant, Quiet Riot, Bon Jovi, Hagar-era Van Halen. Definitely not my thing.

And to me, Animalize, like Lick It Up, is a sort of blend of that sort of trashy populist showbiz metal and harder '80s rock music. Again it has a powerful guitar sound and a heavy attack but I don't really like anything on this record. Nothing really stands out. Heaven's On Fire and Murder in High Heels are probably the more memorable tunes. The latter borrows from Ian Dury's Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll, I think.

But it's all a bit samey, all that hackneyed '80s metal sound with the divebombing guitars and the Atomik Tommy / Schenker style guitar runs. There's no variety, nothing really catchy, no fun. It's very derivative as well; for a band that had once had a very unique personality, the complete absence of anything original or distinctive is a shame.

I don't know if I ever considered buying Animalize in 1984. Just a glance at the cover or the song titles would have put me off by that time, probably.

(https://i.ibb.co/fXb4wLv/badnews.jpg)

I hear you, but I was not quite ready to let go yet. I wanted to ,like it so bad, that I ended up doing so, at least at the time. Mind you, this is '84, I was 14.
In all but title this is a Stanley solo effort, he produced the thing while Simmons was off chasing a movie run. They brought in a flashy new solo guitar player (Mark St.John) that lasted for 1 album and 2 shows before he fell ill and never returned to the band again. Mr. Reliable, Bruce Kulick was brought into the fold and he'd stay until the mid 90's reunion would take place. At least some stability was brought back this way.
Some outside song writers were used again and that resulted in some of the stronger songs on the album.
Heaven's on Fire is the big one here and it it propelled the album actually to multi platinum status.
The problem with Animalize (and its successor Asylum) is the lack of memorable songs. Simmons for this part at least raised eyebrows by putting up a title like Burn Bitch Burn...
Both side openers (I've Had Enough and Under the Gun) we fast paced rockers where Carr showed off his chops and Thrills in the Night (written with Jean Beauvoir) is a welcome change to the regular drumming.
I have a strange fondness for Simmons' While the City Sleeps, it's not a fantastic song but I just took an instant liking to it.

Overall the tour would be better than the album, but the decline had clearly set in and it wouldn't get any better until the early '90s.

So buckle up, it's about to get ugly.

WIth the benefit of hindsight - is it fair to think that there's a sort of crisis in hard rock music, in the early '80s? Bands going more commercial and turning into parodies of themselves; maybe MTV had something to do with it.

Some of the British bands had a sort of weird musical chairs thing going on. Ian Gillan was in Black Sabbath at one point.

I think I had a sort of high water mark in 1983. I can remember going to see UFO, Diamond Head, MSG and Kiss that year.  Obviously Rush had morphed into something else entirely by that time. After that I don't think I ever had much of an interest in that sort of music. I stopped buying new records by the likes of Schenker, Budgie, Priest, Leppard and Motorhead, UFO split up, Zeppelin were long gone, etc. I did buy the Purple reunion record in late 1984 but it never had much of an appeal for me.

I still do like a lot of the stuff I liked up to then though. As I grew middle-aged I became a bit more open-minded about it. Certainly I still give old Budgie and Purple records a spin sometimes, for example.

Quote from: Slim on October 27, 2023, 03:41:46 PM12: Animalize (September 1984)

By 1984, I don't have much of an interest in traditional rock music. I remember that I did buy the Diamond Head album Canterbury that year, and I liked it. I still listened to ZZ Top a lot as I recall, although not the later, MTV-friendly material. But I've definitely moved on. By this time I'm listening mainly to contemporary British artists like Prefab Sprout, The Blue Nile, The Smiths, Scritti Politti, Style Council. Intelligent, thoughtful music.

Certainly, I never had much tolerance for the hair metal bands who came to prominence in the '80s. That flashy, commercial, corporate stuff like Warrant, Quiet Riot, Bon Jovi, Hagar-era Van Halen. Definitely not my thing.

And to me, Animalize, like Lick It Up, is a sort of blend of that sort of trashy populist showbiz metal and harder '80s rock music. Again it has a powerful guitar sound and a heavy attack but I don't really like anything on this record. Nothing really stands out. Heaven's On Fire and Murder in High Heels are probably the more memorable tunes. The latter borrows from Ian Dury's Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll, I think.

But it's all a bit samey, all that hackneyed '80s metal sound with the divebombing guitars and the Atomik Tommy / Schenker style guitar runs. There's no variety, nothing really catchy, no fun. It's very derivative as well; for a band that had once had a very unique personality, the complete absence of anything original or distinctive is a shame.

I don't know if I ever considered buying Animalize in 1984. Just a glance at the cover or the song titles would have put me off by that time, probably.

(https://i.ibb.co/fXb4wLv/badnews.jpg)

Please excuse this detour. From the 80s onwards I regularly used a hairdresser in Glasgow's west end. Long story short we would exchange gig stories and we had similar tastes in music except he was a massive The Blue Nile fan and would always talk about their recent music. I drifted away to other establishments but went back there just prior to lockdown. He immediately started to tell me his Paul Buchanan tale. Again, keeping this short (it's a Kiss thread) he had a number of coincidental bumps into his hero, in a shop, another quick nod and hello again on the street and if memory serves a brief conversation at a party.

One day Paul popped into the shop to see him and was annoyed when my hairdresser said he had bought tickets for an upcoming TBN concert. At the concert, Paul sought out my mate and his wife and arranged for them to attend a post-gig back stage get together. They were a bit stunned by this so joined the party, had a couple drinks and slipped quietly out.

A while later Paul visited the hairdressers. He asked why he and his wife had left before they got to speak to each other and my pal explained he didn't want to impose or outstay his welcome when there were a number of celebrities around and they felt a bit out of place. Paul said to him, "but you're my friend, they were just guests". He was on cloud nine and no wonder. His hero declaring his friendship for him. The stuff of dreams.

Lovely story that. Sometimes musicians are just like people  :)

Quote from: Slim on October 27, 2023, 04:54:29 PMWIth the benefit of hindsight - is it fair to think that there's a sort of crisis in hard rock music, in the early '80s? Bands going more commercial and turning into parodies of themselves; maybe MTV had something to do with it.

Some of the British bands had a sort of weird musical chairs thing going on. Ian Gillan was in Black Sabbath at one point.

I think I had a sort of high water mark in 1983. I can remember going to see UFO, Diamond Head, MSG and Kiss that year.  Obviously Rush had morphed into something else entirely by that time. After that I don't think I ever had much of an interest in that sort of music. I stopped buying new records by the likes of Schenker, Budgie, Priest, Leppard and Motorhead, UFO split up, Zeppelin were long gone, etc. I did buy the Purple reunion record in late 1984 but it never had much of an appeal for me.

I still do like a lot of the stuff I liked up to then though. As I grew middle-aged I became a bit more open-minded about it. Certainly I still give old Budgie and Purple records a spin sometimes, for example.

There was a clear shift in popularity for rock bands from the UK and their place was taken by bands from the US. The US sales figures were unreal and real metal was coming up, culminating in mega sales in 85-88.
This meant a decline in sales elsewhere. You can only spend your money once. While in itself this has little to do with quality, it does explain the lack of good rock bands that started then. If there is no market, there is little interest in starting a band like that.

More on topic:
Kiss mainly survived during this period not because of the quality of the output, but because the popular bands at the time, cited Kiss as a major influence which kept sales up.

Gene Simmons in Runaway, filmed the same year that Animalize was made. I remember Barry Norman (well-known TV film reviewer of the time) talking about Gene's part, and saying that he looked evil.

He was not half bad, as a baddie  ;)  He did a flick with Rutger Hauer, or national acting treasure (RIP) as well, Wanted: Dead or Alive.

Quote from: Thenop on October 27, 2023, 06:53:26 AMHeaven's on Fire as well, which was a bigger song than Lick It Up.
Not sure whether GGRnR to you was actually played, they use it as an outro tape after shows, kind of what Maiden does with Always look at the bright side of life.

Was played on the sonic boom tour, I'm sure.  I remember, because it's one of the only songs my wife knows by them...

I loved Runaway.  I thought it was a great film, although I've not seen it since it was released.

I love The Blue Nile as well, but they're music is so heart breaking, I can't really listen to them much/often.

Quote from: captainkurtz on October 27, 2023, 07:55:00 PM

Quote from: Thenop on October 27, 2023, 06:53:26 AMHeaven's on Fire as well, which was a bigger song than Lick It Up.
Not sure whether GGRnR to you was actually played, they use it as an outro tape after shows, kind of what Maiden does with Always look at the bright side of life.

Was played on the sonic boom tour, I'm sure.  I remember, because it's one of the only songs my wife knows by them...

Must have blocked that, see the tour but drawing a blank.
Never liked the song.

Quote from: Thenop on October 27, 2023, 08:43:02 PM

Quote from: captainkurtz on October 27, 2023, 07:55:00 PM

Quote from: Thenop on October 27, 2023, 06:53:26 AMHeaven's on Fire as well, which was a bigger song than Lick It Up.
Not sure whether GGRnR to you was actually played, they use it as an outro tape after shows, kind of what Maiden does with Always look at the bright side of life.

Was played on the sonic boom tour, I'm sure.  I remember, because it's one of the only songs my wife knows by them...

Must have blocked that, see the tour but drawing a blank.
Never liked the song.

Just checked - was the penultimate song of the set before 'rock and roll all nite'

13: Asylum (September 1985)

I was expecting, pretty much, to be able to copy & paste my assessment of Animalize here but actually I think this one's a little bit different from its predecessor. In essence it's more of the same radio-friendly corporate poodle-hair rock product, but - it's a bit less metal and a bit more rock'n'roll. It doesn't have the dissonant riffs or the Schenkeresque lead guitar widdling, I guess those were probably a Mark St John artefact.

Bruce Kulick, younger brother of Bob Kulick who plays on Alive II is certainly a very sharp player, maybe a bit too shreddy for my liking but he uses the whammy bar a bit more sparingly than St John, which is a good thing.

I think the songwriting is a bit stronger here than on Animalize. And the performances feel a bit more sincere as well somehow, like they've put a bit of heart into it.

Again though there's nothing very distinctive or original. I did remember Tears are Falling, I'd heard that one somewhere before. Probably the best of the bunch. Out of curiosity I watched the video on YouTube. Best viewed on a black and white telly.

I quite liked Secretly Cruel. Any Way You Slice It has a riff that's reminiscent of All American Man.

Radar For Love is surely an intentional homage to Zep's Black Dog. It even has a "get your fill" reference. I wondered if it was inspired by Golden Earring's Radar Love, although musically and lyrically only the title is similar.

Well - for what it is it's not bad but it's not my cup of tea.

Spot on, Tears are Falling is very good being the lead off single. I really like Kulicks solo here.
The lowest piont is the hideous Uh! All Night.

I do like the energetic opener and have an inexplicable liking for Secretly Cruel but thats where it ends. I played it many times back in the day but it never gets out anymore.

It was so much a Stanley album that he even took care of the cover art (not great).

They toured this one only the States.

Not much more to say here, just a bland album with too much filler.
Then again, I think between Animalize and Asylum, a decent album is to be had.

But do continue listening, we are nearing the bottom.

It's a poor record and probably their lowest point image wise - and that's saying something...

Still, like Animalize, I loved it at the time..

I quite liked Lick It Up. At this time Kiss were in crisis. The tour was a major disappointment for me, with only Simmons and Stanley present from the classic era. It was my first experience of seeing Kiss live and I struggled with Stanley's preening and prancing and Simmons' awkward stage craft which essentially consisted of the same moves he'd used as The Demon. However, the album was pretty strong and I played it a lot.
Animalize was harder to accept. Clearly they were trying to adapt to the current musical style (within the hard rock genre). A couple of the song were OK but they were no longer Kiss. At this point the image had become ridiculous. They had morphed into Twisted Sister. I did see the live show at Wembley but it was embarrassing. Each band member was adorned with random bits of leopard-print material to accentuate the album title. Total wank.
I did buy Asylum but that was even worse and that's were I checked out. They continued to chase the zeitgeist, hopping onto the grunge bandwagon with Revenge which was associated with an even more contrived image in keeping with the times.

Thankfully. by 1996 they decided to reunite with Ace and Peter and put the make up back on. I was lucky to catch that tour at the NEC. In my mind it was the first 'proper' Kiss gig I witnessed.

I have to say Paul's stage persona is just bizarre sometimes - actually I think he's an amazing front man in some ways. He makes Freddie Mercury look like Geddy Lee.

I heard a bootleg years ago in which he was telling the crowd some (obviously fake) anecdote about a "BIG-TITTED NURSE" who "pulled my zipper ALLLLL THE WAY DOWNNNNN", just so larger than life.

But he does go too far sometimes in my view. When I saw them he performed a solo guitar widdle for what seemed like half an hour. Vinnie had already done one and it wasn't bad though I could have done without it. But Paul was doing a sort of schoolboy finger tapping thing that most members of the audience who owned a guitar could probably have done just as well.

I laughed when I read that one of the reasons Vinnie got fired was that his guitar solo went on too long. Paul's had gone on too long after about 10 seconds.

Yes if I've paid to see Steve Vai or Eddie Van Halen or Adrian Belew I'll happily watch them improvising improbable solo guitar contortions for a few minutes. Not Paul Stanley. I hope he doesn't still do that.

Also that bizarre balletic dancing thing he does, sometimes with the jazz hands. And the clothes he was wearing in the '80s, and all those pointy guitars. Definitely a one-off.

I liked the Ibanez they sold in the 80s. Might have been called The Iceman. Stunning. I notice they still sell the same shape. I don't know if it was resurrected at some point but it's the only non standard, less than traditional shape that I would buy. Was it made for Paul originally? Very strange that the whole history of electric guitar shapes was covered so quickly. Strat, Tele, Les Paul, SG, Flying V. Never really rated the offsets, Firebird, Thunderbird types too much. Look a bit forced and unnatural and I believe they suffer from balance problems. In a physical, not musical sense. Quite like to own a PRS which I suppose is a Strat / Les Paul love child.

Quote from: David L on October 28, 2023, 11:11:19 PMThey continued to chase the zeitgeist, hopping onto the grunge bandwagon with Revenge which was associated with an even more contrived image in keeping with the times.

That would be Carnival of Souls, Revenge was about as far away from grunge as possible.

But in general the 80s shows were a band that was surviving. Animalize sold well, but the rot had set in. In more ways then one. They had been struggling with management, they left Bill Aucion, had their business manager (Howard Marks) take care of things, although he was clueless and they ended at some point even up using Stanley's shrink to run their business. They had no one to turn to for guidance in a period that was alien to them. Yes they were trying to be part of the hairmetal surge but they were also a good 10 years older than all those bands. They were not druggies like most others and had a most difficult time positioning themselves. Past investments as advised by business managers collapsed and they were more or less broke. It is under these circumstances they were touring and they would record Crazy Nights. Not the things they like to discuss themselves of course, maybe not even widely known, but it's true.

The stage banter was simply Stanley having no clue how to behave. They had been a kids band at their peak, no curse words were used, but now that all bets were off, he could do what he wanted. The long Love Gun rap is the most famous (or infamous) on, indeed the doctors' office talk that is. And Simmons has repeatedly gone on record stating he was lost during this period.

I always think that had they brought back Aucoin, or Sean Delaney (an early day friend and advisor) they would have fared better. But I guess they had to go through this before they could look up again.

And yes: the Iceman has always been a Stanley favourite. Frehley has his signature Gibson, Thayer his signature Epiphone and Simmons has had countless signature basses, the Axe being the most famous one but the Punisher probably the meanest sounding.

Quote from: Thenop on October 29, 2023, 05:33:53 AM

Quote from: David L on October 28, 2023, 11:11:19 PMThey continued to chase the zeitgeist, hopping onto the grunge bandwagon with Revenge which was associated with an even more contrived image in keeping with the times.

That would be Carnival of Souls, Revenge was about as far away from grunge as possible.

I've never heard either. I was thinking more of the image they adopted around that time (long, greasy hair, goatee beards and garage mechanic threads

The Iceman with the cracked-mirror finish is the guitar I'll always associate with Stanley - an epic axe.
I too wonder what on earth he was doing on stage in the non make-up (wilderness years). I was embarrassed for the guy when I saw them live. Completely destroyed the aura for me. It definitely had a strong element of 'mincing' about it. That tippy-toe, backwards, shuffle thing he kept doing was dreadful. Not sure who he got that from but it could've been Kate Bush. And the skateboard knee pads....wtf?

'It was good at the time, though'

Quote from: captainkurtz on October 29, 2023, 02:18:38 PM'It was good at the time, though'

Not really no, not after the Animalize tour.
What they also did, wanting to add to the excitement, is they sped the songs up to ridiculous speeds which made them loose all power.
They stopped doing that once the 90s had set in and they toured Revenge.

My first time seeing them was the Crazy Nights tour at Newcastle City Hall in September 1988.  Horrendous.  I think they must have used the same PA that they'd used at Wembley and the NEC.  It was bone shatteringly loud to the point of being painful.  Notable though that there was a massive - and good natured - stage invasion at the end;  Simmons was literally egging people on to jump down from the balcony.  It was on YouTube for ages but I can't find it now...I have it on VHS somewhere...still, so bad, I made no effort to see them when they returned in 1992 for the Revenge tour...with the Hot in the Shade stage show...

14. Crazy Nights (September 1987)

I'm getting through these a bit quicker than I expected, partly because I'm curious to find out what the reunion material is like. In the meantime - what a record this is.

If the intention, post-makeup, was to morph into purveyors of accessible, polished, uber-commercial soft rock - then this album is surely where they honed their skills in that direction to absolute perfection. This is well-written, well performed, so well recorded and polished to a mirror finish. Props to Ron Nevison, who is the producer. I only really know him for UFO's Obsession.

It's huge sounding. Passionate vocals, big drum sounds, earnest, crashing power chords, driving bass, catchy hooks. It's a masterclass of '80s corporate rock - which is not the sort of thing I'd usually say as a compliment but nonetheless I couldn't help but be impressed.

Everyone knows the title track of course, or the almost-title track. It's a very deliberately populist us-against-the-world song, like Judas Priest's United or Ozzy's Never Know Why. But it's as catchy as anything, it has a power and a depth that carries the message to brilliant effect.

Although (again) it's not my sort of thing I can see myself returning to this one. For what it is it's just so good. Yes it reminds me of Pat Benatar, Heart, Journey, REO Speedwagon et al and I don't much care for any of those artists. Reason to Live strongly reminds me of Foreigner's I Want To Know What Love Is, which I've never liked. I don't care. The Kiss tune is much better.

The Paul songs are more emblematic of what the album's about. A bit more anthemic and emotional. But Gene's efforts are decent as well, and similarly smooth and polished.

Synthesisers are used on some of the tunes, to great effect. I wonder if our own @Matt2112 might enjoy this record.

I must say Bruce Kulick really puts a shift in here. He tends to play improvised solos where I'd sometimes prefer to hear something a bit more composed and melodic, but he plays out of his skin all the same. I think he probably plays most of the guitars on the record. Paul is in fine voice and he sings his heart out.

We're a very long way now from the stripped-down, unpretentious rock and roll of Dressed To Kill. It's hard to think that it's the same band. But this is a very good album indeed.

According to Wikipedia, the record company execs broke into a spontaneous standing ovation at the playback meeting. I'm not surprised; the sound of cash registers going off in their heads must have been deafening.

Interesting to think that this was released the same month I spotted Paul in the street in New York.

A recent interview with Ace. He sounds a little worse for wear to me.

"I'm a great songwriter", he says. Also gives Paul and Gene a bit of grief. "When this album comes out it's going to make [Paul] look like an imbecile".



Here's a comment from a fan on Reddit:

Saw Ace last night at Peekills, NY. He was horrible. I kinda felt bad for him, and I was not the only person that felt that way. Thankfully he has a terrific backing band. I recorded his guitar solo, and it's so bad, I wouldn't even share any of it on social media. And I am a huge Ace fan.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KISS/comments/17i6j2v/comment/k6uzexv/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Quote from: Slim on October 29, 2023, 08:55:09 PM14. Crazy Nights (September 1987)

Synthesisers are used on some of the tunes, to great effect. I wonder if our own @Matt2112 might enjoy this record.

You're 100% correct, James; I have this album on picture disc. :)

Agree entirely with your review - really enjoyed reading it - though I expected it to be rather dismissive given this album is part of that 80s wave of melodic, commercial "hair" rock. 

But, yes, its production, arrangements, writing and performances just have an extra layer of classiness and craft that sets it apart from much of what that genre was churning out at the time.

Let's say this was not my favourite Kiss era.. Until now I had swallowed it all, even Asylum and Animalize but by now I was 17 and when this was released I felt so disappointed. In a time I moved away from pop and rock and gravitated toward metal, this was exactly what I didn't need. I listened to Slayer, Voivod and all sorts of more obscure metal bands. I had ventured into playing my own music and even though feelings of nostalgia now and then popped up and I put on a Kiss record, I was utterly disappointed in this one.
I have the LP, why?
Well, its one redeeming feature it has (and it has nothing to do with the band or the music) is that is was given to me by a girl I ran into when I rode the bus home. She worked in the mall, I returned from my dayjob as well and we'd often see each other there. We did not live too far from each other, she was lovely, big blond hair (yes, it was the eighties), my hair was down to my back and blond as well. It was something in development let's say, she was seeing someone else at the time. It would take a good 2,5 years before we got involved.. and then another 6 before we got married :)

Crazy Nights has 1 song on it that perfectly sums up what I think of it:
No No No.

By this time Gene has zoned out entirely, clearly since he has only I think 4 songs on here. The rest is Stanley drivel. Keyboard driven pop pulp on which he tries to show the world what his vocal range is. Nevison shoud have been taken out back and shot for what he did to the guitars - which are virtually non existent. Kiss has lost their way completely, and it shows.

There is not 1 song on here I like, there are songs that are lower than even the dire Title Track most notably My Way which is a piece of AOR, but the lowest point has to be Reason to Live. It is difficult for me to find words to describe this one. It's a bit like there's a gathering of people worshipping their personal deity and calling this their "reason to live", and a big group hug follows, oh joy! Look at how happy we are!

Edit:come to think of it, it has a sort of happy Foreigner vibe as in the chorus of I want to know what love is.

The irony is, this was their lowest financial point despite the title track being a smash hit in the UK (what happened guys? I hold your in higher regard than this!). 

The subsequent tour was somewhat succesful, but they played festivals in Europe on the Monsters of Rock tour and were limited to approx 45-50 mins of material. They had lost teir headline status. These shoiws were heavily bootlegged and easy to find even nowadays. They look ridiculous and everything sounds like the chipmunks.

 

At the risk of repeating myself....'it was good at the time'...

Quote from: captainkurtz on October 30, 2023, 08:46:16 AMAt the risk of repeating myself....'it was good at the time'...

At the risk of repeating myself: Not really no  ;D

Quote from: Thenop on October 30, 2023, 04:42:57 AMCrazy Nights has 1 song on it that perfectly sums up what I think of it:
No No No.

;D Very good.  Can't wait to see what you think of Forever...

15: Hot in the Shade (October 1989)

I'm not sure I'd even heard of this album. When it came out I was mostly listening to Scofield, McLaughlin, Metheny and similar so if this did appear on the radar, it wouldn't have received much attention.

This is a decidedly different proposition from Crazy Nights. The obvious thing to say is that it's not as classy or stylish, it's not nearly as well-produced. Secondly - it does mostly have a more direct, generic hard rock sound - it's not so AOR-sounding as its predecessor. No-one's going to confuse Boomerang with a Foreigner song, for example. But on the whole we're still a lot closer to Bon Jovi territory than to Hotter than Hell.

Thirdly, it's a long album; there's very nearly an hour of it. We're in the CD age now, of course. Thankfully the advent of the Compact Disk also means that it's a lot easier to skip the songs you don't like. Unfortunately listeners of this album might well want to take advantage of that, because (fourthly) the songs are not particularly strong.

Nothing stands out as exceptional, but to be fair there's nothing really bad on here either. I quite liked Boomerang, if only because it's a showcase for Bruce Kulick's guitar gymnastics. I liked Little Caesar, written and sung by Eric Carr. He sings well and supposedly he plays bass on it, too. If that's true, he's a very capable player.

Rise To It is quite an engaging little (soft) rocker. Out of interest I watched the video they made for this, which features Paul and Gene playing earlier versions of themselves in 1975. "I'll bet you we could take the makeup off and it wouldn't make any difference", 1975 Paul says. 1975 Gene tells him he's nuts.

Peter and Ace also appear in non-speaking parts, presumably played by extras. Ace is warming up on a Stratocaster. Schoolboy error.

Would be nice to think there's a video for a single from Psycho Circus that features Paul turning to Gene and saying "You know what, Gene? I bet we could put the makeup back on..". But I digress.

There are some nice girly backing vocals on Silver Spoon.

Hide Your Heart is faintly enjoyable, a story song with a rhythm guitar part that reminded me of Subdivisions.

I quite liked the little homage to ABBA's Mamma Mia at the beginning of King of Hearts, but I don't like the song.

As for Forever - co-written with Michael Bolton, and it shows - no, I don't like that, either. It reminds me of Heart's Alone. Maybe Ron Nevison would have polished it up nicely though, who knows?

Paul and Gene produced this album themselves allegedly and although there's no sign of the artful, lush sophistication of the album they made two years earlier, they didn't do a bad job. It's well-recorded, it's certainly not an amateurish production job.

In general - it's just a very ordinary album, I'm afraid.

Selfproduced and riddled with errors in doing so, I'd say. Still on the downlow financially they decided to keep several demo drumcomputer parts in favor of Carr re-recording them. As a consolation they gave him free reign on Little Caesar eand it's one of the highlights on an otherwise unimpressive album.

As a matter of fact it was done so fast most of it is made up from 24 track demos the guys did themselves. It is near impossible to pick apart who played what here.

Most of this is instantly forgettable and was never played live. The few songs that were have been long since forgotten. Caddilac Dreams? Silver Spoon? Read My Body? God that is just awful. Listen tot that 2cent drumcomputer that starts of Love's A Slap in the Face, it makes me cry, I can only imagine Carr was pissed.

At least Betrayed had Simmons howling the chorus, Rise to It has some flair. Boomerang has some pace at least. Doesn't make it a good song, but it's better than most of the album.

At the time Kissfans (minus myself) hailed this as a 'come back'. No clue why, it's not good and far too long. Hide Your Heart was done by Frehley on one of his albums as well, still a hideous song.

Unfortunately the only song that scored on the charts was the dire ballad Forever written with Michael Bolton. What they did getting mixed up with the king of housewife pop is beyond me.

Again: no, this is not the Kiss I know and love.

Let's move on, or should we look back? We should! There was an '88 comp called Smashes Thrashes and Hits that had 2 new songs. Any good? Well, if you like Powerstation and juvenile lyrics, maybe. But I think just mentioning the title here will be enough to run you off:

Let's Put the X in Sex
(You Make Me) Rock Hard

That was not the worst part though, you can just skip those 2 songs and get to the old stuff.  But if you do an unpleasant surpise awaits: all of the stuff has been re-mixed and not for the better. I Love it Loud has been neutered, the old classics drown in reverb and odd stereo effects (Love Gun is butchered like this, it brings tears to my eyes). At eats the Ezrin produced stuff they couldn't screw up, Ezrin recorded with effects, which means they could not alter that.

And as a final F... Y.. to Peter Criss they let Eric Carr re-do the vocals on Beth, I kid you not. Carr is an OK singer but to let him do the signature Criss song, well no, just no.

I've not heard Crazy Nights or Hot In The Shade and am unlikely to. They were a band drowning at this point. I just had to look at the pictures of them. I will admit though, Crazy Nights was a masterclass in creating a chart-busting anthem. More cheese than a raclette-lovers convention though.
Enjoying the reviews and comments, great thread

Yeah...hot in the shade wasn't 'good at the time'...it felt like barrel scraping and the final act of a band long past their prime...which makes the follow up even more impressive...

Smashes, Thrashes & Hits: the new songs (December 1988)

Wasn't really aware of these; I think I'd heard the titles but hadn't given them another thought.

Let's Put The X In Sex - I get a strong Addicted to Love vibe from this one and the video reinforces that. It's not bad. Actually I quite like it.  It swings nicely, it's fun. The guitar riff reminds me of Michael Jackson's Black or White, although it does predate that tune by a couple of years.

There's a YouTube video of the band performing this with a girl who looks about 12 doing the lead vocal. Only Kiss, eh?

(You Make Me) Rock Hard - it's not awful but it's very unexceptional. Sounds like a Bon Jovi outtake. The shouty vocal is a bit irritating.

I listened to the Love Gun remix as well, don't know what they were thinking there. Maybe they wanted to get it to sound a bit more "produced" and sophisticated in line with their more recent material? If anything it just highlights how basic the production job was in the first place.

And I listened to the Eric Carr Beth vocal - it's OK, but seems very pointless to me. Actually I think a bit of autotune would have helped.

16: Revenge (May 1992)

Make no mistake, this is a killer album. If ever a band and a producer were made for each other, it's Kiss and Bob Ezrin. From the first moment that Gene's vocal kicks in on the first track, it's clear that this is a very different proposition indeed.

Yes it's lush, sophisticated and polished - you'd expect nothing else with Ezrin in charge. But it sounds HUGE. It has massive balls. It has a terrific, gutsy guitar sound with loads of deep, punchy bass and big drums. It has the old Kiss personality and character in spades. It has ENORMOUS presence. Sure, there's more than a touch of the hair metal sonic approach, there's a bit of the '80s metal sound as well - but there's a real rock and roll power and spirit in these tunes.

And a sense of fun.

Gene especially seems to have invested more effort and personality into this record than he did in the previous three combined. His voice gets a lot of prominence in the mix on all of his tunes, Unholy especially and he delivers a massively spirited, larger-than-life-sized-man performance in all of them. I don't know what Ezrin did to his voice on Unholy but it sounds fantastic - he does a sort of phlegmy, throaty macho caricature growl through the whole thing, I think it's double-tracked. There's a bucketload of reverb on it. It sounds amazing and the sheer power and swagger of the band behind it does it full justice. This is nothing short of BRILLIANT. Similar thing on Thou Shalt Not.

Domino is belting as well and uses that same gruff throaty growl to superb effect. It also has a touch of the old Simmons instinct for poetry:

Got a reputation
Haven't got a hope
It's a sticky situation
If she ain't old enough to vote

Ah yes, then of course there's Every Time I Look At You, and it's the sort of faintly country-ish acoustic-morphing-into-electric power ballad nonsense that I can't abide. But the rest of this album is just so relentlessly balls-to-the-wall* that it comes as a sort of welcome contemplative interlude. A breather. I have to give it a pass. Actually I think Paul was trying to recycle REO Speedwagon's Can't Fight This Feeling, and he got pretty close.

I laughed when I noticed that Gene had stolen a line from Spinal Tap's Big Bottom for Spit, but then again, Big Bottom refers to a "love gun", so - what goes around comes around.

This time I think the Gene songs stand out more than the Paul songs. In fact they definitely do. But they're all good. I Just Wanna is a sort of homage to Eddie Cochran's Summertime Blues. It has a nice choral moment about half-way through.

As for the cover of God Gave Rock'n'Roll To You - that was a minor hit for Argent in the '70s and it used to get the occasional play on rock radio shows so I've known it since I was a teenager. The first time I heard this Kiss version, in a car radio in 1993, I remember thinking that they must have run out of ideas. But honestly I think they bring something new to it. It suits them. And it fits into the flow of the album quite nicely.

I was surprised to hear the BBC get a mention on Heart of Chrome.

It'll take a few more spins for this glorious record to bed in and it'll get a lot more than a few - but I'm confident that this meisterwerk is among the mightiest of all Kiss albums. I have deprived myself of this album for the last thirty years of my life, and I'll never get them back.


^{* I've never been 100% sure what this means, I stole it from Geoff Barton.}

Kiss were on a mission this time and they meant it. Ezrin was brought into the fold, Eric Singer was recruited as the new drummer after Carr's unfortunate demise due to a rare cancer of the heart. He died the same day Freddie Mercury did, something largely overlooked by the media which prompted Stanley to write a heartfelt letter to Rolling Stone magazine:

(https://i.ibb.co/dkH22Tj/11036891-10150563019124967-7154349335958551312-n.jpg)

Why is this album so different, and so much better than previous ones? Ezrin? yes, partly but look at the song writing credits. Notice anything? Vincent Cusano aka Vinnie Vincent. That is correct the very same Vincent that was kicked out 10 years prior. That is how much the band wanted to prove themselves that tehy even sort of humbled themselves by bringing him back into the fold. Unholy, Heart of Chrome and I Just Wanna were penned at least partially by him. All 3 are killer tracks.

God Gave Rock'n'Roll To You II was done with Eric Singer on drums as the first song and Ezrin producing as a try out, to see if it would work. They recorded it for the Bill & Ted movie and it turned out so weel they decided to put it on the album. Carr was heartbroken, still alive at the time he got to hear another drummer playing drums on what was his band. He was in the video, really sick at the time. He would pass away soon after.

I agree the ballad is not my thing at all, but this one sounds a lot better than the previous ones, I'll give them that. Having said that it is (together with GGRNRTY) minor detractions on an otherwise fantastic album.

Ezrin pushed all of them , but mainly Kulick to the brink simply saying 'not good enough' if he came in with any solo. Just to push him that much more.

Gene's Unholy fit his persona so well that they made it the album opener, a very strong track.

Lyrically the album is very Kiss, although in the fourties now..

The band themselves really rate this album as well, all 4 recording members that is. This is what Stanley and Simmons had in mind when it came to recording an album all these years. Focused, well produced and extremely well played. All the Zeppelin hints, the national anthem playtime (Spit) and similar intros (Heart of Chrome / Tough Love) or even the most kickass intro they ever did: Paralyzed. Fantastic. 

Some of these tracks made it onto the setlist for the coming tour, even playing some of these on the convention (acoustic) tour.

Closing off with a nice hommage to Carr with a 1981 recorded drum solo is a very nice touch, oddly enough recorded by Ezrin as well.

Think I"ll have a listen to Revenge from Qobuz

I always associated balls-to-the-wall with Paul Stanley using it in a TV interview, I think on the Kiss Symphony DVD. I didn't realise that Geoff Barton had coined it. I never quite got the metaphor but I've just looked it up and it comes from the world of aviation. A pilot would push the plane throttles forward using the ball handles on the top, toward the firewall to gain the maximum thrust (which is a good Kiss word).

I always associate the phrase with German metallers Accept

Quote from: The Picnic Wasp on October 31, 2023, 03:54:49 PMI always associated balls-to-the-wall with Paul Stanley using it in a TV interview, I think on the Kiss Symphony DVD. I didn't realise that Geoff Barton had coined it. I never quite got the metaphor but I've just looked it up and it comes from the world of aviation. A pilot would push the plane throttles forward using the ball handles on the top, toward the firewall to gain the maximum thrust (which is a good Kiss word).

I doubt Geoff coined it - but he did use it more than once.

Complete agreement there - Revenge is an astonishing accomplishment given almost a decade of poor records.  Still sounds contemporary now.  Wish I'd seen them when they played in Whitley Bay in 1993..

17: Carnival of Souls: The Final Sessions (October 1997)

Released nearly two years after it was completed due to the reunion tour, and that "The Final Sessions" suffix is perhaps a hint that the band don't want you to think of this as a bona-fide instalment in their canon, more a document of what they were doing at the time. So - I have to qualify my comments here somewhat. It wasn't, as far as I can tell, really released as a new Kiss album proper, and perhaps it's unfair to judge it in that light.

Then again there must have been an intention to do that when it was recorded.

Very odd one, this. It's as if the band had made an hour long appearance on Stars In Their Eyes to impersonate Alice in Chains, and there seems to be a tacit acknowledgement of this on Rain. "I think it's going to rain", Paul sings. When I die?

Bruce's guitar style really suits this approach. So does Gene's vocal style. Paul's - not at all.

Honestly, for what it is, it's not all bad. There are some decent tunes. I liked Hate, I liked Jungle. I liked Seduction of the Innocent, which although still a dirge at least has a bit of subtlety. I liked I Walk Alone, sung by Kulick. Decent singer.

I didn't like I Will Be There which is an acoustic tune with strings, although it still has a grungy stripped-down ethos somehow.

But mostly it's pretty lacklustre. It's wilfully joyless. Utterly so if you compare it to the rest of the Kiss canon. It's certainly dismal if you compare it to Dirt or Facelift, and that's a comparison you can't avoid. And even the songs I liked aren't great.

But more importantly - how could anyone, even the most diehard Kiss fan, take this pretence seriously? This was an established band with a long and partly distinguished history composed of middle-aged men, not a group of young men from the suburbs of Seattle. It must have been very obvious by now that Gene and Paul would jump on any bandwagon to try to stay current and relevant. It really feels powerfully inauthentic.

I've had a little delve in here and there.

I think this thread (enjoying it as I am though) could have been a whole lot shorter

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid

They are essentially the American version of Status Quo

I used to think Foghat were the American Status Quo, until I found out they were English.

Know nothing of Foghat but I see KISS as the Las Vegas version of Quo to be more precise.

A lot brasher, and with a much bigger stage, costume, pyrotechnic and make up budget.

Much, much bigger egos but similar amount of talent!

Carnival of Souls is an interesting one. Like the Elder, it exists outside of the normal Kiss realm. It was not toured, and only released because it was bootlegged and they figured just put it out there.

I agree Simmons is much more suited for this than Stanley who seems to chameleonize to the style whereas Simmons just does what he does.
Production is of it's time, very dry and direct.

I enjoyed it at the time and at it every now and then but never get to the end.
I do enjoy quite some tracks, Childhoods End I have the inexplicable fondness for. The nod to God of Thunder is fun.

Stanley wrote a bunch of samey sounding tracks and his singing sounds he doesn't believe what he is doing. Neither do I, although I like Jungle probably more than I should. It Never Goes Away has horrid lyrics..
Bruce's vocal debut is great but they stuck it all the way at the back of the album, missed opportunity in my eyes.

The band never cared for this one, cover 'art' is non exist ant, just a random band shot.

It wasn't a good sound for the band and they knew it. Their minds were elsewhere at the time, when this was released the Reunion tour was already in full swing.

One thing, although this is a studio album thread, the unplugged album should not go unnoticed. I really enjoy that one still. It has a bit of everything: obscure tracks, hits and of course the inevitable reunion with Frehley and Criss. I remember I was away for the weekend and sat anxiously waiting for the TV in a holiday let for MTV to air this. Man it was exciting then. The entire acoustic convention tour had them dive into their past quite a bit taking requests from the audience. I heard quite some recordings from those shows and they were fun.
As oppose to the reunion which was vintage for sure: great to watch, and apparent hell for the band members to live through.

Quote from: Slim on November 01, 2023, 12:33:12 PMI used to think Foghat were the American Status Quo, until I found out they were English.

"Slow ride, take it easaaay"
Classic Fog

18: Psycho Circus (September 1998).

It's 1998 already, and Ace and Peter are back in the band.  Just like old times! Or is it? Peter only plays drums on one of these songs, Ace only appears on two of them. Yep, just like old times!

Bruce Kulick makes more of a contribution to the record than Ace does, despite being officially out of the band (or were his tracks recorded before he was let go?). Tommy Thayer plays elsewhere. Neither of them plays particularly adeptly, I assume they were under instructions not to play something Ace would never have managed.

In any case - this is a poor record. It seems to be something of a concept record about themselves. It's a pretty ordinary production job, bigger sounding than Eddie Kramer maybe but there's nothing grandiose about it. Paul's voice seems a bit thin, maybe recorded a bit too dry.

More importantly these songs, written as chest-beating celebrations of themselves, just feel dull. They seem to be putting the effort into the performances but because the songs are flat it feels hollow, forced.

There's a ballad, I Finally Found My Way with piano, strings and Peter on vocals. It's bland easy listening. A tune called Within is so dirgey that it occurred to me that it might be left over from the previous album. It was!

I suppose You Wanted The Best is the signature tune, featuring all four band members, if that's what Ace and Peter really were, trading lead vocals. It does at least have a very recognisable Frehley lead guitar break. I have no idea what the bizarre English accent voices at the end are about though.

I'm afraid it's a case of all filler, no killer. And as a reunion record, given the very limited participation of Ace and Peter, it's every bit as fake as Carnival of Souls.

I listened to the Japanese edition bonus track as well, In Your Face written by Gene for Ace. It sounds a bit like Joan Jett or Suzi Quattro on steroids with Ace singing a lead vocal and funnily enough, I enjoyed it more than any of the bona-fide album tunes. But not a lot.

This of course marks the point where Gene and Paul decided to cash in as a nostalgia act. I think it's a shame that they did this. The Bruce Kulick / Eric Singer version of the band was considerably more capable.

Psycho Circus, yeah...

So, I went an saw several shows in the late 90's, labelled as Reunion. And they really should have left it there, as far as the original foursome go that is. But no, they wanted more. More touring and another album.
Stanley has told everyone that wanted to hear it that he wanted Ezrin to produce. I can imagine why, but Ezrin was otherwise engaged and, probably, not that interested at this point. SO they brought in Bruce Fairbairn, another veteran producer and sort of lost interest. That is how I see it at least. All the interviews and i studio reports I read talk about how uninvolved the band members were. Like said, Frehley and Criss were near absent, because Fairbairn wanted to make an album he deemed both gentleman not capable of playing. Thayer, Kulick and a slew of studio musicians (Kevin Valentine on drums) did the heavy lifting.
The whole thing sounds like an album Ezrin would have rejected. A few songs on here I like, the title track is classic Stanley and actually quite good. I do like Within even though it was a leftover from CoS and oddly enough I enjoy Journey of a 1,000 Years with its recurring title track theme. It sounds like something Simmons would have put on his '78 solo album. But the one song that is actually most fun listening to is Into the Void the Frehley one. Finally we hear Peter Criss playing again on a Kiss tune. Yes its not very good, timekeeping was never his forte (which is odd given he's the drummer) but it has some swagger needly missed in the other songs.
The ballad and singalong tunes in the middle of the record are just bad. And I'm 18, oops sorry, Dreamin' I mean, is a bit much Mr. Cooper.

The packaging with a lenticular cover was actually quite cool and the subsequent tour kept in check by presenting 3D imagery with a pair of glasses handed out at the entry.
The tour was not as great as the Reunion tour in terms of setlist and playing. Frehley had picked up his drinking habit (he has been sober for years now) and Criss was rumoured to have gone back to his old ways of refusing to perform if he didn't like the paycheck. I saw thew show in the Netherlands and it was OK-ish. But the later shows with Singer and Thayer in the fold, make up and all, are far superior to this tour.
The subsequent Millennium / Farewell tour that was done in the US was a nightmare, riddled with problems, mainly originating from Criss.  It would take an alternative line up (with Singer and Frehley) to tour Japan to close out Frehley's tenure as well.
The real Reunion was fun while it lasted, but in all honesty, I think that '96 Tiger Stadium show, warts and all, was the absolute highlight.

19: Sonic Boom (October 2009)

I first became aware of this album when someone - I think it was our old friend Presto-digitation - posted about it on TNMS, with a link to some samples somewhere online, back in 2009.

At the time, I commented there that it sounded OK but more like generic hard rock than classic Kiss. But actually having given it a proper listen fourteen years later - there is a very strong whiff of '70s Kiss about this record.

No outside writers this time and it was produced by Paul and Greg Collins, who apparently worked as a recording engineer with U2. They've done a very decent job. It's not a work of art like an Ezrin album, but it's well recorded. It's a shame Rock and Roll Over and Love Gun don't sound more like this.

Actually one or two of these tunes could almost be like Dressed to Kill or Hotter than Hell songs with beefier guitars.

There are some nice deliberate nods to the past - for example the opening riff of Stand is nicked from Christine Sixteen, Hot and Cold has a little reference to Doctor Love. And Thayer must be copying Ace's style deliberately. He gets it spot on. The demented vibrato. The Pagey blues licks. The repeated double pull-offs. The minor third bends. The staccato single note motifs. It's uncanny! He's a bit more fluent than Ace though, I have to say.

Thayer sings on When Lightning Strikes and to be honest I thought it was Gene while I was listening the first time. It's really very good, with Doctor Love style power chords aplenty and lots of cowbell. Lovely!

For me, this is a dramatically stronger album than Psycho Circus. It's a beefy rock'n'roll record with a lot of classic Kiss character, some of the old Rolling Stones-style swagger and riffery you'd find on the old Kiss records and bags of classic Kiss personality.

It's really very good.

It isn't just an homage to their past though, for example Stand sounds nothing like '70s Kiss and even has a Beach Boys style harmony vocal section. I'm An Animal is a lot heavier than anything you'd find on (say) Love Gun, although even that has some familiar-sounding riffage. Say Yeah has a faint hair metal feel about it but it's robust and powerful.

Paul's voice is a bit strained, but he's eleven years older than last time now. He does fine.

I really liked this. Actually it was a joy, and considering it was over a decade since they'd made a record I think it's remarkable.

When the band decided to record another album, it was really Stanley that was at the forefront. Simmons had little interest but showed with some great tunes. The intro chords to Yes I Know with that Mr. Speed nod is really great, the whole song sounds a bit like Cheap Trick in the verses. Hot and Cold is maybe he strongest Simmons track on here. Very 70s indeed.
I am not the biggest fan of Stand but I see the attraction of the opening riff & verses, the chorus puts me a bit off though. It drags a bit as well.
The most popular tracks on here are the Stanley tunes Modern Day Delilah and Say Yeah, which was intentionally with audience participation in mind and is brought out still.
My inexplicable liking song on this is All for the Glory, maybe because I like the raspy voice of Singer.
Speaking of Singer, he does a fantastic job on this album. I subscribe to the Dutch "Slagwerkkrant", a drummers magazine and I recall an interview with Singer around this time. Being a drummers mag gear was discussed and although he is a Pearl endorser of many years, he stated this album was recorded with an old Rogers kit! Oh joy, I have one of those, so there was an instant connect there.
Speaking of instant connect, the solo on All for the Glory is 100% Frehley, but played by Thayer, great copy.

The solo line on the intro of Danger Us is copped from She (DtK), I was waiting for it to continue but then it goes into one of the more lame songs, Danger You, Danger Me, Danger Us! (?), C'mon Paul, do better!
I'm an Animal is this albums Simmons persona song. He's done better, but it's not bad.

This album overall is a 7/10 for me.

At the time I thought: this must be it, they will close shop soon and I went to the show. It was great, the usual eyebrow scorching experience and a great setlist. Little did I know they would return with another album just 3 years down the line.

I must listen to SB again.  Loved it at the time (sorry for the repeated use of that term).  It was a really surprising record in how strong it was, as I recall.  Saw them in Manchester and Newcastle on that tour in 2009 - both great shows.

And finally, or I assume so anyway:

20: Monster (October 2012)

Similar in approach to Sonic Boom, same studio, same production team, no outside writers again and it's more of the same driving, heavy rock'n'roll. Decent songs, sprited performances. There's nothing much not to like.

But - it's not nearly as distinctive as its predecessor. It sounds a lot less like '70s Kiss and a lot more generic. Nothing stands out as particularly interesting, even the songs with the comedically juvenile lyrics "I raised my thang and she dropped her dress" don't feel particularly memorable. Oh yes and "I'll take you on a cruise you'll never forget / she said, we better move cause I'm already wet". Same song: Take Me Down Below.

I liked Tommy's tune Outta This World, in which the guitar player promises to take the object of his affections out of this world on a "midnight rocket". Sound familiar?

Eric sings a song written by Paul called All For The Love of Rock & Roll and I think that's probably the highlight. Good old-fashioned bluesy Stones type rock'n'roll song. But it didn't knock me out.

One thing that disappointed me about this album is the overall sound - not the production, just the overall sonic feel. It sounds a bit compressed and mushy. I listened to the album through my Grado headphones but I felt as if I'd gone back to my rather more ordinary Sony pair. Fans of vinyl could possibly see this as a positive, of course.

It's really not a bad album at all, but it's a bit of an anti-climax to bow out on. Even so: I think Planet Earth has had enough Kiss records now.

Just checked the start date of this thread and I got through all of them in a month. Enjoyable exercise. Interesting insights.

One that really struck me is how extremely flexible the band have been in their approach to making music - like the Stones, not afraid to use different guitar players, share the bass playing duties, bring in additional writers and backing musicians, different drummers and so on. It has to be said though that the Kiss organisation was a bit more dishonest about it than the Stones were; there's no excuse for Ace to appear on the cover of Creatures of the Night for example. Or even Psycho Circus really, although he does feature on a couple of songs.

Monster was an unexpected surprise to me. I did not know they'd manage to pull it off but somehow they did. it was also, a bit disappointing. Kiss has some sister albums, like Animalize and Asylum, and the initial one is always better. The seconde one sounds like a photocopy, a but faded. 
That said, there are songs no here I really like, you mentioned Outta This World, great song. I also like Long Way Down, has a bit of a Zeppelin feel again and the Eric Singer song is nice. He really has a very pleasant voice to listen to.
I also like the lead off single Hell or Halellujah. Like most of Stanleys opening songs it is a very easy tune to listen to. Back to the Stone Age is another one I like as well  but the rest is a bit bland.
I always though that Sonic Boom and Monster combined would have made one fantastic album .
The title of the album I never understood even though the font looks a lot like the energy drink brand...

Overall, looking back at the studio albums I am pleased they ended with these 2. It would have been a shame leaving us with Psycho Circus as their last creative work.

There is not future in studio albums for Kiss, there is only the archives. Most of that consists of live recordings. In fact they have already started releasing live shows, I think they are at number 5, soundboard tapes turned LP release. I have some, not all.
As for studio archives, the band released a 5CD boxset back in 2001 with some 100 songs of which about 30 were unreleased. Demos or pre-Kiss, one or 2 songs not to be found on albums. It's probably up on the streaming services. There is the God if Thunder Paul Stanley demo, the Love Gun demo (which is basically the whole song fleshed out and played by Stanley, the band just re recorded it). Fascinating stuff, and it gives an insight in how the band worked. It's the ultimate best of if you will.

No doubt they will find more stuff in the archives, I know they will because there is a lot more material from the past.
Simmons released his "Vault" box at a whopping USD 2000,-. For that money he travelled around the world and the buyers could pick up their box at a Vault Experience, handed out by Simmons himself. The music is interesting. All the old '70s demos are on there, including 3 Love Gun demos with the Van Halen brothers playing on them: Christine Sixteen, Got Love for Sale and Tunnel of Love.
I suppose this is really a fanboy thing (and no I don't own it I am not that mad) but the demos are a fun listen.

Anyway, looking back on this thread (thanks Slim, I really enjoyed this!) it taught me it always pays off to re-listen to this stuff. Time is a funny thing, it's sometimes kind and sometimes harsh on the memory.

Closing off, my 5 favourite Kiss studio albums (and I do cheat a bit) are Destroyer, Creatures of the Night, the Ace Frehley '78 solo record, the debut and Revenge.

I did compile a list of albums in order of preference:

Destroyer
Dressed to Kill
Revenge
Music from 'The Elder'
Crazy Nights
Love Gun
Sonic Boom
Lick it Up
Hotter than Hell
Kiss
Rock and Roll Over
Monster
Creatures of the Night
Asylum
Dynasty
Hot in the Shade
Psycho Circus
Unmasked
Animalize
Carnival of Souls

I wouldn't swear to it though because I've only heard some of those albums once, whereas others have been familiar to me since I was 17. I might be misremembering (though I checked my posts in the thread). I might change my mind if I listened to them all a few more times each (but I'm not going to).

But roughly, that does represent my impression / opinion.

I didn't list the Elder  :o
Maybe because it exists out of the Kiss catalogue for some reason to me. But it is surely part of my top 5 albums probably pushing out the debut.

Great work gentlemen. A very disciplined and enjoyable thread. I'm already listening to more Kiss than I have in the past. I incorrectly judged them as a novelty act, but there's clearly a great deal more substance to them than that. I shall continue on my voyage of discovery. A relief really as I need an injection of new musical entertainment from those decades.

Just as a delayed postscript to this thread: last night I went to see three local bands playing in a large shed at a farm about two miles away. There were a few hundred people there. Between the first and second bands the DJ played I Was Made For Lovin' You. As the soon as the chorus kicked in, most of the young people in the crowd were shouting along and punching the air!

How do they even know that tune? I wondered. Maybe it's been in a TV show or an ad?

It was covered by Yungblud for a film called The Fall Guy, apparently.

Quote from: Slim on October 14, 2023, 08:25:24 PMLove Gun (June 1977)

Once again, an album that I bought as a teenager, probably in 1978. I liked it, it did 'stick' unlike Rock and Roll Over and I played it often although I've never been completely convinced by it.

It does have some banging tunes and makes a substantial contribution to Alive II - including I Stole Your Love which is an absolute highlight of that second live album for me - proper, kicking, highly-charged rock'n'roll - and of course the title track which is deservedly a classic.

One thing that struck me while listening to Tomorrow and Tonight is its obvious debt to the Stones. I think it was probably conceived to be in the same vein as Rock and Roll All Nite. It doesn't have nearly the same power or energy. It's not one of the better songs on this album and it's probably my least favourite of the live songs on Alive II. But slowed down a little, with a bit of Keef attitude on the rhythm guitar and a bit of swing on the drums, it could have had a nice swagger. In particular I think that the distortion on the rhythm guitar robs it of a bit of bite.

The trouble is - Eddie Kramer, while a very capable sound engineer, was to my mind not a great producer. These songs are well-recorded but they aren't really well-produced, even allowing for the proposition that he preferred a more authentic, "live" sound. A really good producer (for example) wouldn't have put that phaser on the drums for a couple of bars in one of the Rock and Roll Over songs. I can't remember which one but it really sounds superfluous. And more to the point he would have got more out of the songs on both these albums.

No assessment of Love Gun could fail to mention Christine Sixteen, a song which necessarily divides opinion. I note that Geoff Barton, well known to Rush fans as a champion of the Canadian trio's work in the UK music press in the '70s but also a huge Kiss fan, is uncomfortable with it in the present day. Well - personally I like it. Gene's spoken section that starts with "I don't usually say things like this to girls your age.." never fails to raise a laugh.

Actually rock songs about underage girls are not that uncommon, Led Zeppelin and Motorhead both contributed one to their canon. At least Gene Simmons had the good taste to ensure that the fictional Christine had at least reached the age of consent. I think that's commendable.

Shock Me, Frehley's debut as a singer, is one of the better tunes and deserves its place on Alive II.

But - Hooligan. A real low point. Did Peter write these lyrics?

Dropped out of school when I was 22
What can I do to satisfy you?

I mean - Gene's lyrics come across as dumb sometimes but at least they have a sense of humour. Speaking of which - how could he have missed a clear opportunity to rhyme "perfection" with "erection" in Plaster Caster? It's a bit late now but let me help:

The plaster's gettin' harder
And my love is perfection
A token of my love
It's my erection

The album closes on another low point, Then She Kissed Me. Why? Who is it supposed to appeal to? I just can't imagine what they were thinking.

To sum up - some classic songs, a couple of good tunes even among those that didn't get an airing on the live album. But a couple of clunkers. To me it's an improvement on Rock and Roll Over but nowhere near as ambitious or powerful as Destroyer.

I think this is the last album of the real-deal, classic Kiss period closed off by Alive II.

I had a listen to Love Gun while out on a bike in Ace's memory, since it contains what I think of as his signature tune Shock Me. Apparently I last listened to it two years again on Tuesday. Two years! Anyway I dug up this post to see if I still agreed with myself, and I do. Peter's lyrics for Hooligan are just awful. So here they are in full:

My granny, she said I was a hooligan
Runnin' 'round like a fool again
I went down to the candy store
If I had a nickel I'd buy some more

And I'm oh so sad, yeah, oh so bad
So sad, but it's true
Baby, what can I do

My mama, she said I was a black sheep
My baby, she said I was a creep
And I'm oh so sad, oh so bad
So sad, but it's true
Baby, what can I do

I got a '35 Chevy on a '55 frame
Can't even spell my name
Dropped out of school when I was 22
What can I do to satisfy you

I'm a hooligan
Won't go to school again
I'm a hooligan
Won't go to school again, won't go, no

I got a '35 Chevy on a '55 frame
Can't even spell my name
Dropped out of school when I was 22
What can I do to satisfy you

I'm a hooligan, yeah
Won't go to school again
I mean you know how cool I am
I'm a hooligan, I am a hooligan
Won't go to school again, won't go, no

I'm a hooligan
I mean like I'm so bad
Won't go to school again, yeah, ha, ha

I'm a hooligan
And like every chick in town loves me
Won't go to school again, won't go, no
Nobody's gonna pull me down

Most of those horrid lyrics were made up on the spot by one of the studio engineers. Peter may have contributed.. But the band had to keep up appearances, all 4 members now singing.

Agreed on Shock Me, a fantastic tune that has stood the test of time. It was Ace's first formal vocal recording, he laid on his back in the studio he was that nervous about it. I love his somewhat lazy style of singing.